figuring how caps will sound by specs?

[Svart]

So we've gone over how caps sound to different people over and over, heck i just did 10 hours worth of trials (in another thread) with caps and opamps to find that expensive opamps may enhance audio quality but the sound is overall affected by the caps used by a much greater extent. So my search goes on to find the right combination of parts but leads to a question that I have been thinking about.

We usually test caps in a certain way:
1. get some caps, any variety that someone told you would be good.
2. spend hours recapping.
3. stick the board in and try it.
4. spend the rest of your life trying to figure out what part/cap combinations would give you XXXX qualities by substituting parts.
5. goto 1. and start the process over.


We also know cap value vs. response, but is there any other combination of specs that can determine a cap's sonic nature?

an example: a cap of XXXX brand might sound bright, but a cap from YYYY brand with seemingly equal specs might sound dark.

so is there a predictable outcome hidden in the white papers of these caps?

 

[Svart]

oh that's in the works too.. someone just tossed an old-ass tv full of tubes into our dumpster maybe some good parts...

 

[Gus]

Like Chris posted specs are just words on paper.

Specs will only help a little I don't care if the cap is 85 or 105 I think that rating is made up. It seems to have no base in the real world.

Caps you just need years/decades or trying things I started playing with caps back around 1979

21 years at my current job and thousands of caps later I learned you get what you pay for. Stay with the well known brands and try alot of them.

The circuit can limit any cap change.

Keep you electros formed and DON'Tt use bypass films on electros.

 

[gyraf]

[quote author="Gus"] ...and DON'Tt use bypass films on electros.[/quote]

I don't understand why not? I've had results ranging from waste-of-time to fabulous with bypassing electros with film..? Definitely never had it making anything worse..? Am I just lucky with this?

Jakob E.

 

[Gus]

My ears don't like good electros(with some forming voltage) with bypassed caps. I am still trying to understand what is going on

Bypassed with no so good electros or no forming voltage can help.

 

[Svart]

i was going to ask the same question... why not? I know it lowers esr and tends to sweeten the high end response.. does it affect the value of the 'lytic cap too much?

and back to the original question, beyond values and ratings is there information that WOULD or SHOULD predict how a cap will sound given a certain testing circumstances? I do understand that caps that i place in my system WILL sound different to someone using the same caps in another application, but just for generalization lets use the phantom blocking caps for comparison since i think that a lot of the sound of a channel is determined by those.

 

[Svart]

ah so it's opinion. that's cool as long as it works for you, but bypassing has worked for me, maybe because i've been working with the cheap 'lytics in my console. I have yet to try the FC caps without bypassing but I'm not sold on them yet.

 

[Winston OBoogie]

...

 

[Svart]

thanks Winston, I was hoping this thread would at least get people thinking and maybe someone would have noticed some specs that would at least help figure out how a cap would sound so that we would not have to try EVERY single cap in the catalog to find something that would sound how we imagined. I guess there is no getting around the work involved.. :green: guess i'll just bite the bullet and have a few :guinness: as I'm hunched over the soldering iron all night again.

:thumb:

 

[clintrubber]

from W.O'.B.:

Mostly, I think the caps issue (especially signal coupling ones) is one of those 'to taste' things and don't have any major insights to offer I'm afraid. Although I do admit to being one of those guys that will use a Hovland over a Panasonic given the choice.

I regret that I don't have much more to add now than this, but it sounds like it's time for a multi-deck front panel rotary switch with Elna, Panasonic, Panasonic+film, etc around it... :wink:

...as long as the added wiring doesn't get into the equation of course.

 

[Svart]

that's actually a great idea.... then we could have someone graph the response curves and know what each cap does to the audio!!

really, this is a MUST DO.

:thumb:

 

[clintrubber]

As turned up in previous disc. about this topic, the freq-response is not the complete picture since 'transient stuff' plays a role too - which isn't fully captured in such a plot. Influences of /differences between 'real' signals & test-signals.... I haven't read the various suggested cap/DA-articles yet...

But I figure that freq-sweeps would certainly shed some light on the subject.
Just tonight I read in a review of a 1176-RI about the seemingly 'bright' character of the 1176-design. (I only have the review, no clone yet :wink: ). Couldn't imagine that that this wouldn't show up in a freq-response plot.

Bye,

Peter

 

[Winston OBoogie]

...

 

[Svart]

yes exactly. I didn't mean that this would be a definative test for all qualities, but first and foremost, people are choosing caps based on the ability of the cap to change the audio brighter, darker or not at all. once that is established we could figure in testing that may show more of the interesting sonic aspects like smearing and things of that nature.

:thumb:

 

[CJ]

you can search the web and read cap articles till your skin turns blue.
i think you just have to a/b the cap thing to get an answer yourself.
you could put a square wave thru a electrolytic and see how different brands handle the high end. you wil have two different tyime constants when using a .1 across a lytic, thats for sure. i can see two things happening while bypassing, you let more high end thru if the lytic starts to block upper frequencies, but now you have two paths for the audio. does anything get phase shifted? or do things get more linear? kind of like tweeters and wolfers. a tweeter really adds high end but it also produces problems due to phase shift. fix one thing and you create other problems.
lytics can self charge. can this cause problems in feedback circuits?
just replace those nasty lytics and tants with transformers! :razz:

 

[Svart]

oh gotta be difficult do ya?.. :green:

and yes you are quite correct. I'll be trying many many different arrangements in the coming lifetimes it will take, but i promise you I will not die until i find the right combination of Jack Daniels and Coca-Cola~!!

or caps and opamps.. whichever comes first.









probably the Jack n' Cokes..








or maybe a rotten liver...








oh wait, too late. I better hurry with the caps n' amps!

:green:

 

[Gus]

Try to find some panasonic HFs. They are the most HiFi I have used.

FWIW I just got a used rode ntv microphone stock it has AV polypros and a big blackgate electro. I normally am not big fan of stock rodes but the ntv sounds nice with the stock china tube replaced.

I think I need to get me some blackgates

caps change all the time ESR size and mass seem to be something that can help pick the good ones.

I tend to like short and fat to the tall and thin at the same ratings with electros. not a joke I think it has to do with resistance short and fat part and chemistry mass part.

 

[clintrubber]

from W.O'B.:

The last time I put an 1176 on the Audio Precision and set it for a slow frequency sweep (gain reduction off) there was a fraction of a dB tilt , we're talking .3 dB or so, from bottom to top. Anyone else found the same results? The D.U.T. was the class 'A' output, UTC ouncer input version.

Interesting it shows up. That's a tiny amount though, you sure you adjusted the trace rotation of the AP ? :grin:

As far as could be determined at such magnitudes, is it a more or less constant slope ?

Bye,

Peter

 

[Svart]

Gus,

it seems that the shorter the cap relative to it's width/diameter has an effect on it's ESR, it's usually lower.

 

[tk@halmi]

FYI. Blackgate capacitor manufacturing will cease in 2005.