Guitar amps - a few nagging questions

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Consul

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 3, 2004
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1,653
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Port Huron, Michigan, USA
This should be a short thread.

I just have a collection of odd questions about guitar amps in general, and DIY amps in specific.

1) How is it you get a fairly wide frequency range from nothing but 12" speakers?

2) What is the difference between a guitar amp and a keyboard amp? I can't see much of one, other than the only time I saw a two-way keyboard amp, which makes more sense to me.

I'm thinking of taking on the P1-Extreme project from ax84.com (link here). I think this would be satisfactory for both theremin and analog synth. Any opinions?

Thanks for the help.
 
I think I will only answer question 2 as I am a guitar player and use only tube amps.

I think the main reason would be that the culture of electric guitar contains "distortion" and "feedback" (amongst other things) in its list of desirable sounds.

Tubes break out nicely with lots of sweet harmonics usually. If you need that you can have it with a "guitar" tube amp. Otherwise most keyboard amps are meant to amplify and recreate the sound as it is at the input source. Also you got it right by wondering about full frequency reproduction from one speaker. You can do that for guitar as its one instrument with a limited range. A keyboard can have from Bass to Cymbals in its arsenal of sounds so its more "full range".

For keyboards, tradition leans towards reproducing the sound as clean as possible (redundat I know). Any distortion or other effects are generally found inside the keyboard.

That doesn't mean you can't use a guitar amp for your synth but as you turn up your tube amp your sound will change drastically compared to a Keyboard amp (as they are ususally solid state and have more efficient speakers that create less distortion).

So its a matter of taste. Chances are you do not want your Acoustic Piano patch to sound like its going through a RAT distorion pedal.....

Or maybe you do?.....

Jim
 
Well, this would only be for analog synths which I build. I would run digital stuff direct, most likely, and would still have the option of analog stuff direct as well. I see some direct boxes in my future. :grin:

My set-up as I envision it would be to have two computers, one for recording, and one for digital synthesis and sampling. That way, I can put any analog devices I choose in between the two. Yes, I know I could loop signals back into the same machine, but some of these programs require so much CPU and disk space (Ivory, anyone?) that I think a second computer just for recording would be best. It woulodn't need to be very beefy, really.

Okay, back to guitar amps. Thank you for your input. One other question I've always had: Why is the standard speaker size for guitar amps 12 inches, and the standard speaker size for bass amps 10 inches? That's always confused me.

I think I'll go ahead and build the P1-Extreme. It's simple enough, and it makes some pretty good sounds.
 
> How is it you get a fairly wide frequency range from nothing but 12" speakers?

A twelve is naturally flat up to about 800Hz. Above that point, total power output falls, but directivity rises. With light stiff paper, it is not hard to get sorta-flat on-axis to past 3KHz, often strong lumps out to the 5KHz-6KHz range.

The response of a Twelver above ~1.2KHz is real ratty. At first, coverage reduces from 180 deg to 60 deg and getting narrower: not hitting the side of the audience. For hi-fi, it does not "fill the room", a necessity in small-room work. Somewhere around here resonances in the paper cause dips and peaks. At a little higher, an ideal cone's pattern would break-up and throw multiple beams. A real cone, or two of them, will throw a different comb-filter to every place in the room. Comb filters are very audible when swept, but not very harmful when static (when the listener sits still). Everybody gets a slightly different version of the 1.2KHz-5KHz range, but they all get enough to enjoy the music.

Off-axis (anywhere in a room except on-axis), a closed-box Twelve would sound tubby: flat and omni to ~800Hz, then beamy and falling 6dB/oct. However the open-back cabinet has significant bi-di directivity, so it is weak off-axis through the bass-800Hz range. The directivity is fairly uniform from bass to above 2KHz.

The tone stack in a gitar amp allows boosting >2KHz which gives approximate correction for the falling power response and also room effects.

The Fender Twin cabinet is not quite big enough to baffle an 80Hz wave, even counting floor-reflection. 80Hz is down, but speaker resonance is around 80Hz and under-damped which causes a rise.

The net result is that a Fender Twin can be remarkably flat in power output from the lowest gitar note up through low harmonics of the highest note you can fret. The last octave of harmonics is bright on-axis and dull off-axis. Throughout the whole range, directivity gives 6dB-10dB more "throw" than an onmi speaker would.

Amps smaller than a Fender Twin have to compromise. A one-Ten open-back box will not have the balls of a Twin, but if you work with a bass player it may not matter one bit. A open-back Ten will throw your screaming solos just fine. Even smaller, you need to go closed-box to have a pretense of handling the lowest gitar note, so you lose "throw" and get a different balance between on- and off-axis response.

> What is the difference between a guitar amp and a keyboard amp?

Usually the keyboard amp is closed-back, omni in bass, has some throw around 800Hz, then adds a mid-tweet to splatter 2KHz over most of the room, beaming at 8KHz. Straight-up EQ is nominally flat, not treble-shelf boost like a gitar amp. Directivity is lower, frequency response is a little wider: a big KB amp will go 60hz or 50Hz, and the tweet past 8KHz so you can do the space-effects that synths do, without sounding like you phoned it in. I'd be real wary of any "keyboard amp" that didn't have a tweeter, unless you want your synth to sound like a Fender.

Oh, yeah: some guitarists use phatt distortion, most synth just clips.

> satisfactory for both theremin and analog synth

Theremin has special problems due to pure tone, total portamento, and 80 years of tradition. Of course Theremin is so unusual that nobody is going to complain that your sound isn't right. I'm not even sure what to suggest; I expect you will learn that for yourself.
 
Wow, PRR! Thank you for that post. You are an amazing man. :thumb:

I really don't know exactly what I'm going to do, either, as far as the theremin goes. It may depend on the song: running it through a DI or a guitar amp can both be options.

I guess you could say I'm taking a very "MacGyver" approach to this whole home recording thing. If a particular device works well using bailing wire and chewing gum, there's little reason to believe I would like it better if it were all precisely machined parts.
 
> Why is the standard speaker size for guitar amps 12 inches, and the standard speaker size for bass amps 10 inches?

??? A bass amp needs a Fifteen. Anything else is a toy. There are a lot of toys in the toy store.

Pick a low-frequency limit, assume you want flat response, and assume you can build a speaker-driver of any parameters. Now broadband efficiency is proportional to box size. 50% efficiency at 40Hz is as big as a small bathroom; subwoofer-arrays used in stadiums get near this. 2% at 50Hz is something like 3 cubic feet, still an awful big box for a bass player to lug. If you let bass-limit rise to 70Hz and efficiency drop to 1%, you can do 1 cubic foot, a luggable box. This assumes you can get enough electric power to make decent acoustic power at 1% efficiency; sand-state amps make the amplifier lighter than the increased box needed for better efficiency.

Cone diameter is set by displacement volume (how much air moves per stroke) and by the mass/stiffness ratio between cone-coil and box enclosed volume divided by cone area.

For wide-range multi-tone hi-fi, displacement is limited by FM distortion. A high tone riding on a large-amplitude low tone will Doppler into fuzz. For full-range music, if you can see the midrange move, it is distorting. That is much less a problem for bass guitar signals where the signal is from a single string. Narrowband subwoofer research now allows peak displacement of an inch or more.

There isn't any simple answer for "Why is the standard speaker size for guitar amps 12 inches, and the standard speaker size for bass amps 10 inches?". But the core issue seems to be: a guitar's low-note is small enough to allow a large-area speaker with "throw", and guitar is normally played that way. You can't throw 40Hz or 60Hz with any speaker you can lug, so you just build an air-pump. If electric power is cheap and box-size is painful, you build a small hard-worked pump. A Ten is a reasonable pump with modern transistor and voicecoil technology.
 
Thank you again, PRR!

As for the 10 inch bass cab speakers, I'm relying only on my personal observations. I've seen tons of bass cabs with 10 inchers, and only a few with fifteens, which are terribly expensive.

I'll probably build my P1 with a 12 incher, open-back cabinet. It's just going to be a little studio amp anyway.
 
Anything else is a toy

I can't really agree that an Ampeg 8x10" is a toy. Maybe it is, but a really good toy. And yes, I know that 8x10" is different from 1X10"

/Anders
 
I have an SWR Goliath 4-10 cab that is stunning although I do use it occasionally with my 15" because the 15 definitely helps the low B on my 5 string come through.I actually wish I had an 18" for that though.
TP
 
I could never get really excited about cabinets with 10s even though I own a couple. I find I can't get far enough away from them to hear the timbre or the pitch of the instrument even on a really big stage. They sound great in the audience and I just feel the breeze rustling the bottom of my pants. It can be a real problem with fretless bass. I wind up having to get my pitch from the monitors, which are, ironically, usually 12s or 15s. I like the sound of 15s better on stage. I'm inclined to let the audience fend for themselves. :green:
 
I LOVE the SWR Goliath...
Same appreciation here, these are nice cabs (using a set of Gol.-II here). I was amazed at the differences in sound when comparing them to 4*10" from Trace Elliot (which sounded like cardboard, but OK, that's were a cone is made of) or the Eden 4*10", which really roar & seem quite a bit louder for the same power-input. I'd describe the SWR's as the most neutral of those three.

For more SPL-hungry gigs I've been this sad person to add an Eden 1*15" under those two SWR-cabs and while this became a bit over the top all, I was amazed at the amount of bottom that the Eden was still able to add to those already present cabs. It'll probably have been because of a differently voiced speaker finding a place to be heard.
 
I don't want to digress too much into speaker building so I will just say that the physics of the box you use to reproduce your instrument are somewhat complex but no single 10" speaker can make a decent, rich bass cabinent and many single 15 inchers can. You can make an array of a gazillion 1/2" speakers, or any number of other outlandish things like a long throw, small cone speaker like the cars use to destroy the hearing of entire neighborhoods for your instrument, but most of them are silly.

A lot of people like 10" bass speakers, otherwise so many companies wouldn't be selling them. I don't count myself among thier fans though. I do like the giant 10" arrays from Ampeg and Trainor (from the perspective of the listener) but can't lift either.

I know that a lot of what you like comes down to subjectivity, and what you came up hearing. If you like not hearing your instrument faithfully reproduced, and no one objects, that is what you do I guess. There are people playing single string basses, people (lots of them) playing with no dynamics at all, all manner of numbskull artifacts out in the world at large.

What PRR said before about the physics of the speaker, in a box, in a room is simply true. You can't twist it, or effectively refute it. It is just not possible to get full response of a good bass reproduced with a small cone, at a decent volume, in a room other than your shower stall. That is not to say you can't get bass from small speakers at all. You hear bass OK in some headphones, but how practical is it to give everyone in the audience headphones? Well in an audience that comes to hear me maybe, but I am talking about you.

I am sorry to rant so. I have played bass for 40 odd years (very odd years) and I have very set opinions about it. The whole instrument must be taken into account when choosing how you want your audience to hear what you have for them. This includes the speaker/amp. This includes the venue. There are dozens of trade offs to consider, each a compromise of some sort. I have a friend who is an excellent bassist who takes 10" speakers with him when he does charity work at nursing homes. He sure dosen't use the same rig at Austin City Limits. For me, I like to hear the low end of my bass so I always use a 15. I sometimes augment this in various ways to match what I am doing and where I may be, but I at least have one 15 with my rig. Now I'm considering going out and investing in a bunch of headphones though.
 
I also have to point out that an inherently good sounding instrument is much easier to amplify than an instrument that relies on the amp for tone. Then you can look for an amp that just stays out of the way and makes the instrument louder. These days I perceive a much greater reliance among players on amps for the basic sound. If you can find an electric bass that sounds great not plugged in, it will sound great plugged in.
 
That sure is the truth. Several years ago I was looking into getting a good bass instrument and just couldn't find one I really liked locally. Being inherently stupid I decided to just build my own. I only have hand tools so this became a major undertaking. I did a dozen or so different types/styles until I finally did one that was exactly what I wanted. My friends and acquaintences were sick to death of me by the time I was finished, but several of them ended up with my basses. I even sold a few but I am not good at the business end of most things.

As for tone, I have sometimes put more knobs and switches on things (instruments and amplifiers) than any sane person could use. If you wanted, you would be able to micromanage the tone shaping. With all that, I find I never use any of it. Tone controls are always set flat on my stuff and they gather dust. I do sometimes use the volume control though, but even that is rare.
 
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