Has modern culture jumped the woke shark?

[AnalogPackrat]

And what happens to a company that hires people because they make it look better? After some time it will affect the bottom line and the market will sort it out.

If thosr people are not competent, then the company ends up wasting money and not succeeding and/or competing as well as it could. If the company is publicly traded then it is corporate malfeasance that harms the shareholders.

Where exactly does it go much deeper? I see the obvious virtue signalling in hiring patterns in the media industry (some European countries following these American trends now appear to have actual minority overpresentation) and there are isolated idiotic incidents of e.g. male rapists supposedly identifying as women being placed in women's prisons etc. And I've noticed certain scientists that are usually very clear thinkers now refering to animals "that lay eggs" and "produce sperm" (for which the perfectly reasonable terms obviously are "female" and "male").

In education, especially universities, but also K-12 in more recent years. There it displaces and distorts teaching from history to STEM. It infects companies where capable and experienced employees are passed over or sidelined either because they aren't intersectionally enabled or because they believe in meritocracy and refuse to go along with the BS. It is now affecting churches and dividing congregants. The US military is losing readiness because these policies are being forced on soldiers, sailors, and marines to the detriment of our national security. There is little left that is not negatively impacted by woke policies. The left simply ignores these facts or pretends there's some vast right wing conspiracy about the woke culture war.

Again, I don't think this is going to last. Regression to the mean always happens. As usual, the next generation will look upon their parents and be embarassed and do think and act differently.

No, regression to the mean does not always happen. What happened to Athens? Carthage? Rome? The Russian Empire? The Armenians? The Kurds? Inca? Mayans? Cherokee, Choctaw, Chikasaw, and Lakota? Ancient African civilizations? History is full of examples.

But climate change is a very different matter, it's science, not culture, and it will put increasing pressure on every single person on earth, unless we find ways to deal with it. And migration is and will increasingly be caused by climate change, it's vital to view these things in context.

Not everyone is an adherent to the cult of climate doom and science has not always been correct in very recent history regarding climate.

 

[living sounds]

No, regression to the mean does not always happen. What happened to Athens? Carthage? Rome? The Russian Empire? The Armenians? The Kurds? Inca? Mayans? Cherokee, Choctaw, Chikasaw, and Lakota? Ancient African civilizations? History is full of examples.

All lost to wokeness...

Seriously, there are so many issues around now that can sink civilisation(s), like the unregulated media environment, staggering amount of money in politics, extreme income / wealth inequality, private and public debt, anthropogenic climate change, potential hazards of AI and proliferation of WMDs in rouge states, rise of authoritarian regimes around the world, etc., annoying and worrying as some of this wokeness/overzealous PC certainly is, I wouldn't put it near the top of that list. I see this more as a symptom than a cause in and of itself...

 

[scott2000]

annoying and worrying as some of this wokeness/overzealous PC certainly is, I wouldn't put it near the top of that list

It appears to be right up there regardless. It's good to see some companies and people in positions of power and decision making can walk and chew gum at the same time. Unfortunately the problems that are serious seem more akin to walking, scrolling through your phone and listening to music on earbuds while trying to cross the interstate during rush hour traffic.

 

[AnalogPackrat]

All lost to wokeness...

Did I say that? No. They fell due to a variety of causes and did not regress to the mean.

Seriously, there are so many issues around now that can sink civilisation(s), like

the unregulated media environment,

Freedom of the press is a stabilizing force, but rapid conglomeration has undermined this. Regulation to prevent this is reasonable. Control of content by government authority is a terrible idea.

staggering amount of money in politics,

agreed.

extreme income / wealth inequality,

Keep a level playing field and prevent monopolies (while reducing monetary influence on government) and much of this is not a problem.

private and public debt,

Agreed. Government is not the solution to most problems. Spending tax dollars inefficiently is usually not helping anything.

anthropogenic climate change,

Disagree.

potential hazards of AI

Agreed.

and proliferation of WMDs in rouge states,

Rouge is red. Communist states aren't the only rogue states.

rise of authoritarian regimes around the world,

Agreed. And this is now a problem in the west as well as was clearly shown during Covid.

etc., annoying and worrying as some of this wokeness/overzealous PC certainly is, I wouldn't put it near the top of that list. I see this more as a symptom than a cause in and of itself...

Any factor that serves to reduce the useful intelligence/knowledge of the average citizen enhances the risk of failing. Tyrants use the ignorant to their advantage. Creating an undercurrent of faux-victims only divides and distracts while Klaus and his ilk do their work. Groupthink is dangerous to humanity.

 

[JohnRoberts]

All lost to wokeness...

No, but did not return to normal

Seriously, there are so many issues around now that can sink civilisation(s),

indeed, ESG/DEI focus is just another on the list.

like the unregulated media environment,

Free speech is our first amendment, so important, of course abuses need to be policed (like government controlling social media to silence opposition).

staggering amount of money in politics,

The logical solution for this is to make being a politician less profitable. Shrinking government spending will make politics less attractive to corrupt politicians and their deep pockets supporters.

extreme income / wealth inequality,

There needs to be equal opportunity, not equal outcomes... Cuban communism delivers equal outcomes, everybody is poor.

private and public debt,

Interest rates that have been too low for too long have distorted economic activity for years. Paying off all the debt will not be easy, even with cheaper inflated currency.

anthropogenic climate change,

This is pretty much a grift, remarkable how successful they are at influencing the public dialog (capture the kids young). I see factual errors often in news reports. One recent theme that is laughable is that home run hits are up in baseball because of global warming (except that home runs are not up in the minor leagues that share the same climate).

potential hazards of AI

This horse is already out of the barn, but smart to understand the potential. I bet the political puppet masters are already deep into this technology.

and proliferation of WMDs in rouge states,

Like Iran, N Korea, etc? of course after Iran joins the nuclear club, the Saudis and others in the region will want in. Ex-president Trump inelegantly calls this risk "nuclear warming". For perspective the bombs used in Japan to end WWII were on the order of 15-20 kilotons. The Russian Tsar Bomba has a reported yield of 50 megatons. That powerful of a weapon is hard to imagine. Putin has as many nukes as the US does, and is much more likely to use one. He routinely threatens as much.

rise of authoritarian regimes around the world

Authoritarian regimes have always been with us. US and the west have long been champions of democracy around the world. There have been some notable setbacks for democracy lately ( like Hong Kong). Now Taiwan is at risk, but that is not exactly new, China always felt it was their territory.

, etc., annoying and worrying as some of this wokeness/overzealous PC certainly is, I wouldn't put it near the top of that list.

not top of the list but on the list.

I see this more as a symptom than a cause in and of itself...

It is a tool being used and promoted by bad actors to destabilize established organizations (governments?).

Ignore at your own risk.

JR

 

[cyrano]

Not everyone is an adherent to the cult of climate doom and science has not always been correct in very recent history regarding climate.

If science was always right, it'd be a religion.

 

[cyrano]

Free speech is our first amendment, so important, of course abuses need to be policed (like government controlling social media to silence opposition).

So it's not OK if the govt is the censor, but it's OK if corporations censor and even manipulate press, elections and whatever else they throw money at?

I have given you ample examples of companies that specialise in manipulation, yet you keep bickering the govt. Corporations have owned your govt for a long time.

The logical solution for this is to make being a politician less profitable. Shrinking government spending will make politics less attractive to corrupt politicians and their deep pockets supporters.

Being a politician isn't profitable. Selling out is.

The biggest problem of any govt, is that they simply have no time to plan any meaningful policy. The next election will bring the opposition to power and they'll change whatever their predecessors have been doing. Resulting in a major stand-still in the longer term.

There needs to be equal opportunity, not equal outcomes... Cuban communism delivers equal outcomes, everybody is poor.

Obiously, it was way better before, when only the Cubans were poor.

Yet they have better healthcare than the US. Unless you're one of the rich in the USA. And then still...

 

[AnalogPackrat]

If science was always right, it'd be a religion.

If scientists would drop the hubris and admit when they don't really know something I wouldn't have called it a cult. At the moment far too many scientists are not doing science. And when people start chanting "trust the science" and "believe the scientists" thay are practicing religion, not supporting actual science.

 

[JohnRoberts]

So it's not OK if the govt is the censor, but it's OK if corporations censor and even manipulate press, elections and whatever else they throw money at?

i didn't say that either... freedom of speech is good.

I have given you ample examples of companies that specialise in manipulation, yet you keep bickering the govt. Corporations have owned your govt for a long time.

I have worked in marketing/advertising before in connection with my job... Business is all about persuading customers to buy your product.

Being a politician isn't profitable. Selling out is.

Insider trading using privileged information is one thing being investigated, but this has been looked at before. It is remarkable how many politicians become millionaires on modest government salaries.

The biggest problem of any govt, is that they simply have no time to plan any meaningful policy.

huh...

The next election will bring the opposition to power and they'll change whatever their predecessors have been doing. Resulting in a major stand-still in the longer term.

You are describing the current administration's policy to reverse almost everything President Trump accomplished.

Obiously, it was way better before, when only the Cubans were poor.

huh? Cuba used to be a popular tourist destination before Castro's revolution. I knew a guy whose father had his business stolen by the Castro government.

Michael Moore's film "Sicko" is not an accurate historical document. Even he has seen the light since then. Cuban doctors have been sent around the world by the cuban government in exchange for stuff like Venezuelan oil (IIRC they were earning $100 or less a month). The Cuban healthcare system was mostly functional when Russia was wealthy enough to subsidize Cuba, but now they suffer shortages of medicines and supplies. I hear similar even worse stories about healthcare in Venezuela .

Yet they have better healthcare than the US. Unless you're one of the rich in the USA. And then still...

I guess we are all pretty rich in the US...

I recall being able to buy prescription drugs cheaply in Mexico (without the prescription). I don't know about Cuba...

JR

 

[JohnRoberts]

If scientists would drop the hubris and admit when they don't really know something I wouldn't gave called it a cult. At the moment far too many scientists are not doing science. And when people start chanting "trust the science" and "believe the scientists" thay are practicing religion, not supporting actual science.

I saw a recent video of some popular TV "science" guy, arguing that science was all about consensus, not evidence.... Evidence trumps consensus! One contrary data point can disprove a popular wide consensus.

At one time scientific consensus said that the world was flat, then the scientific consensus said that the sun revolved around the earth.... etc etc etc...

JR

 

[AnalogPackrat]

So it's not OK if the govt is the censor, but it's OK if corporations censor and even manipulate press, elections and whatever else they throw money at?

What realistic alternative to freedom of speech do you propose? Criticism is easy. Solving problems is not.

The biggest problem of any govt, is that they simply have no time to plan any meaningful policy. The next election will bring the opposition to power and they'll change whatever their predecessors have been doing. Resulting in a major stand-still in the longer term.

You ignore the permanent bureaucracy who have plenty of time to plan and execute regardless of the will of the people. Making it hard for (elected, representative) government to get anything done is a feature, not a bug. The worst thing you can do is make it easy for government to do things if you wish to remain (relatively) free.

 

[Recording Engineer]

You are describing the current administration's policy to reverse almost everything President Trump accomplished.

Don’t forget Trump of Obama’s.

 

[cyrano]

i didn't say that either... freedom of speech is good.

I didn't say it was bad

I have worked in marketing/advertising before in connection with my job... Business is all about persuading customers to buy your product.

So buying an election is business as usual?

I am not for prohibition of anything, in general, but I see a case for prohibition of donations from corporations to politicians. Outlaw lobbying. There's legislation that tries to implement that, but it seems it is very popular to be creative.

Money has no odor.

Insider trading using privileged information is one thing being investigated, but this has been looked at before. It is remarkable how many politicians become millionaires on modest government salaries.

Insider trading, flat-out corruption, nepotism...

huh...

Huh?

You are describing the current administration's policy to reverse almost everything President Trump accomplished.

Just like Trump before eradicated a lot of things Obama had put in place. A never ending story.

huh? Cuba used to be a popular tourist destination before Castro's revolution. I knew a guy whose father had his business stolen by the Castro government.

Michael Moore's film "Sicko" is not an accurate historical document. Even he has seen the light since then. Cuban doctors have been sent around the world by the cuban government in exchange for stuff like Venezuelan oil (IIRC they were earning $100 or less a month). The Cuban healthcare system was mostly functional when Russia was wealthy enough to subsidize Cuba, but now they suffer shortages of medicines and supplies. I hear similar even worse stories about healthcare in Venezuela .

I happen to know some of these doctors. Evidently, their wages are a lot lower than in the USA. There was NO exchange of anything when Cuban doctors arrived first in Africa to help with Ebola. They just happened to be world leader in research about Ebola.

The Cuban healthcare is functioning pretty well. There are shortages, mostly due to the blockade by the USA. Fortunately, in exchange for the opportunity to market one of the treatments developed in Cuba, the Canadians are supplying the most urgent needed drugs.

Oh, and BTW, up 'till the pandemic, there still were tourists in Cuba.

I guess we are all pretty rich in the US...

I recall being able to buy prescription drugs cheaply in Mexico (without the prescription). I don't know about Cuba...

JR

The price in Mexico is pretty much the normal price in the rest of the world. How many Elizabeth Holmes do you need to make you see the light?

Obviously, only the 1% is rich. You're one of the other group, defending the rights of the 1%. Does that make you a liberal. Where's the "confused" emoticon when you need it.

 

[scott2000]

Oh, and BTW, up 'till the pandemic, there still were tourists in Cuba.

Yeah my brother in law visited right before the pandemic. He loved it and planned to go back. Said people he saw and hung out with were very poor and without many basics we take for granted. But very positive people.He actually left everything he took for the trip with some people he met and planned to bring extra stuff next time. Interesting that there was a certain time of day people were allowed to use the internet. They all had to go to a central place in town to hook up to the wifi for the period allowed. Said it was wild seeing everyone gather....
Also said he was actually followed around at times by what he thought were govt people iirc the story correctly.
But yes he loved the people and was fascinated by the place enough to want to return.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Yeah my brother in law visited right before the pandemic. He loved it and planned to go back. Said people he saw and hung out with were very poor and without many basics we take for granted. But very positive people.He actually left everything he took for the trip with some people he met and planned to bring extra stuff next time. Interesting that there was a certain time of day people were allowed to use the internet. They all had to go to a central place in town to hook up to the wifi for the period allowed. Said it was wild seeing everyone gather....
Also said he was actually followed around at times by what he thought were govt people iirc the story correctly.
But yes he loved the people and was fascinated by the place enough to want to return.

if you love old cars (1950s-60s), Cuba is the place...

Great Island, good people, crap government.

JR

 

[Tubetec]

 

[hodad]

This Bud Light silliness reminds me of the "Happy Holidays" bullsh!t propagated by certain right wing influencers. Companies generally have no interest in alienating potential customers who might be Jewish or Muslim or pagan by saying "Merry Xmas," so they go with "Happy Holidays." Nothing but straight up capitalism motivating that decision, but a bunch of Christian-identifying conservatives make a stink about it--because in their sad minds respecting the beliefs of others disrespects theirs. Similarly, while Anheuser Busch is happy to cater to the tastes of beer-loving conservative goofballs ("Dilly dilly," anyone?), they recognize that the beer-drinking public is in fact quite diverse, and direct advertising at different (non-hetero) consumers. Quality capitalist motives at work there--expand the customer base! But conservative heteros freak out because a company dares to market to someone besides them.

Bud Light is a straight white beer!!! They scream. How dare Anheuser-Busch market our product in a way that appeals to people who offend our delicate, puritanical, hypocritical sensibilities?

It's tiresome. And it gets painted as A-B being in the thrall of the "wokesters," when A-B is just engaging in good old-fashioned Capitalism.

 

[Recording Engineer]

Right. Everyone seems to be looking at everything through only a political-lens now-a-days. Capitalism and just pure neighborly politeness, respect, and celebration of all walks of life, is of no consideration or even allowed now, apparently. That is EXACTLY what they’re marketing - to sell their beer. That’s one campaign I can actually get behind!

 

[JohnRoberts]

This Bud Light silliness reminds me of the "Happy Holidays" bullsh!t propagated by certain right wing influencers. Companies generally have no interest in alienating potential customers who might be Jewish or Muslim or pagan by saying "Merry Xmas," so they go with "Happy Holidays." Nothing but straight up capitalism motivating that decision, but a bunch of Christian-identifying conservatives make a stink about it--because in their sad minds respecting the beliefs of others disrespects theirs. Similarly, while Anheuser Busch is happy to cater to the tastes of beer-loving conservative goofballs ("Dilly dilly," anyone?), they recognize that the beer-drinking public is in fact quite diverse, and direct advertising at different (non-hetero) consumers. Quality capitalist motives at work there--expand the customer base! But conservative heteros freak out because a company dares to market to someone besides them.

Bud Light is a straight white beer!!! They scream. How dare Anheuser-Busch market our product in a way that appeals to people who offend our delicate, puritanical, hypocritical sensibilities?

It's tiresome. And it gets painted as A-B being in the thrall of the "wokesters," when A-B is just engaging in good old-fashioned Capitalism.

Right. Everyone seems to be looking at everything through only a political-lens now-a-days. Capitalism and just pure neighborly politeness, respect, and celebration of all walks of life, is of no consideration or even allowed now, apparently. That is EXACTLY what they’re marketing - to sell their beer. That’s one campaign I can actually get behind!

Indeed tiresome and politicized.

If you think the ad campaign was smart, I hear the bud stock is on sale this week (while Coors stock went up). I suspect they are both losing market share to Mexican beers.

JR

 

[Recording Engineer]

Indeed tiresome and politicized.

If you think the ad campaign was smart, I hear the bud stock is on sale this week (while Coors stock went up). I suspect they are both losing market share to Mexican beers.

JR

Egh… Stocks go up and down. I’d give it a while… Maybe until the next big social-political blow-up of choice.