Haufe T14/1 DC resistance comparision

[ln76d]

I don't know if this info could be usable for someone, but since i have opportunity - here we go!
Colors according the present production transformer (easily identify).
Red-Red measured with Green wires connected to each other.

T14/1 from 2013
1:
Green-Red: 31.73Ω
Green-Red: 31.77Ω
Red-Red:      63.09Ω
Blue-Blue:  2.933kΩ

2:
Green-Red: 31.56Ω
Green-Red: 31.52Ω
Red-Red:      62.58Ω
Blue-Blue:  2.911kΩ

3:
Green-Red: 31.58Ω
Green-Red: 31.69Ω
Red-Red:      63.63Ω
Blue-Blue:  2.924kΩ

 

[ln76d]

T14/1 from 1960/61

Green-Red: 30.80Ω
Green-Red: 30.87Ω
Red-Red:      61.36Ω
Blue-Blue:  2.948kΩ

 

[ln76d]

T14/1 from 50's

1
Green-Red: 30.31Ω
Green-Red: 30.42Ω
Red-Red:      60.60Ω
Blue-Blue:  3.083kΩ

2
I found today that the second from same period has broken two windings  :-\
If i'll be able to fix it i will post results.
There will be also another from 60/61

 

[ln76d]

Datasheet

 

[ln76d]

Visual comparision

 

[hop.sing]

Interesting!
I once read in Klaus Heines forum, it was either by Oliver Archut or Klaus himself, that the new t14/1 is not made like the old ones and one reason he stated was that the dc resistances are off. For my understanding they seem close enough to be the same product.
Can you tell us something about sound differences between the transformers?
Thanks Tobias

 

[ln76d]

Hi Tobias,

i hope this could be useful to someone
I know that from Klaus forum too (and i read few similar topics) also because of that i started this topic.
Such opinions i don't take completely seriously
I found a lot of misinformation on that forum but also many useful things.
Unfortunately i have no option to compare the sound but i think it would be too much subjective to give any useful informations.
If someone could tell me what's the best option to measure the voltage ratio i can try
I have 600Ω output Generator and Oscilloscope. Should i use some specified load?

 

[Banzai]

Goes to show, everyone has an agenda.

Interesting!
I once read in Klaus Heines forum, it was either by Oliver Archut or Klaus himself, that the new t14/1 is not made like the old ones and one reason he stated was that the dc resistances are off. For my understanding they seem close enough to be the same product.
Can you tell us something about sound differences between the transformers?
Thanks Tobias

 

[OPR]

Great Post In7d6!! I'm just about to order a few of these to try out.  I'll post some comparisons in my c12 builds with the Ami tranny if I get a chance...
Cheers
Mark

 

[ln76d]

Great Post In7d6!! I'm just about to order a few of these to try out.  I'll post some comparisons in my c12 builds with the Ami tranny if I get a chance...
Cheers
Mark

Thanks. Next week i'll try to measure voltage ratio.
For T14/1 check the Banzai offer in black market, i bought one and my friend bought two pcs (That's why i have three of them ).
Good price and Banzai is a great seller
Once i bought AMI T14 (and body alctron/apex with C12 lookalike headbasket) but it was stolen in the shipping so i hadn't chance to compare it...
It's funny because still i didn't found any trace of genuine T14... Any photo...
Am wondering  does that model even exists in the 50's ?!?

 

[Banzai]

Thanks ln76d, glad they're being put to good use 

The AMI T14 and the Cinemag CM 13114 are supposedly the same dimensions as the Hiller T14. Never seen an original one either.

 

[JessJackson]

I have the one on the right which came with my Telefunken USA C12.

I have found my output level to be about 3db lower than most vintage c12's, this also stands for Olivers ami remake also.

Jess

 

[originalmusician]

Goes to show, everyone has an agenda.

Interesting!
I once read in Klaus Heines forum, it was either by Oliver Archut or Klaus himself, that the new t14/1 is not made like the old ones and one reason he stated was that the dc resistances are off. For my understanding they seem close enough to be the same product.
Can you tell us something about sound differences between the transformers?
Thanks Tobias

I'm confused. Are there two versions of the T14/1 being currently manufactured? One that's (nearly) identical to the original, and one intended to compensate for the capsule difference in the Telefunken USA mics?

According to this recent thread, Klaus has never heard the new ones, and JJ says they sound the same as the old ones.

http://repforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,36879.0.html

 

[ln76d]

I'm confused. Are there two versions of the T14/1 being currently manufactured? One that's (nearly) identical to the original, and one intended to compensate for the capsule difference in the Telefunken USA mics?

According to this recent thread, Klaus has never heard the new ones, and JJ says they sound the same as the old ones.

http://repforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,36879.0.html

There's one T14/1 made by haufe these days. Tele USA:
"The amplifier circuit utilizes a European-made Haufe (manufacturer of the original) output transformer built to match the original"
On their microphones pictures are the same t14/1 like in my picture (on the right).

 

[originalmusician]

There's one T14/1 made by haufe these days. Tele USA:
"The amplifier circuit utilizes a European-made Haufe (manufacturer of the original) output transformer built to match the original"
On their microphones pictures are the same t14/1 like in my picture (on the right).

OK, that makes sense. So I'm going to try and piece together what I know.

1) Telefunken USA claims the transformers are identical.
2) JessJames found the new transformer has a 3db output reduction compared to the original.
3) The Oliver T14 has the same 3db reduction.
4) The T14/1 from 2013  has roughly 3% more resistance compared to the 1960 version.
5) According to Klaus, despite a manufacturing cost of $1000.00 per capsule and a 50% rejection rate, Telefunken was unable to duplicate the magic of the original CK12 capsule. Although Klaus has never heard the new T14/1 transformer, based on his electrical measurement, he claims it has increased bass output intended to offset the capsule differences between the new mic and the original. 
6) JJ directly compared the new T14/1 to the original and felt the new transformer did not depreciably affect the sonic character of the microphone.

JessJames. It appears you have heard both the new Telefunken USA and several original microphones. Can you tell us your impressions between the mics?

 

[JessJackson]

I like my new name..

basically to cut a long story short, I purchased what I thought was a vintage C12 at the time. vintage PSU, Vintage Body, Vintage cables and polarity switcher etc, Vintage Capsule etc...

Upon inspecting and researching I found that it was basically a display mic for AKG that Telefunken USA had acquired and retrofitted with their modern Haufe transformer etc... It has a original capsule but it was re-skinned by Telefunken USA.

This is how I came to owning the newer Telefuenken USA Haufe.

I was also building elams at the time with Olivers T14, when completed, I tested against Vintage Elam at paramount studio's here in hollywood.

The first thing I noticed was Neve needed extra 5db click to match levels, The second thing i noticed was the lack of the 3D lower midrange warmth you get out of the vintage one ,so i tried to swap out the tx for the tx in my C12. not much difference. (anyone who's used a vintage c12 / elam will know what i mean about "3d", it sounds stereo although its mono, definitely some magic phase stuff going on)

So i added wet tantalum 3.2uf output cap and massive difference, now it was hard to tell the sound apart BUT level was still lower. I tried 2nd tim cambell capsule, no change, i tried different tube, no change.

Which leads me to believe that the vintage haufe transformer has a lower output ratio and is different spec than published maybe. Another member in the elam thread just acquired a vintage Haufe and confirms this, Ive asked him to check the resistance of the TX for us.

Cheers

 

[dmp]

If someone could tell me what's the best option to measure the voltage ratio i can try
I have 600Ω output Generator and Oscilloscope. Should i use some specified load?

To measure the turns ratio, hook up the signal generator to one side of the transformer, and the oscilloscope to the other. You don't need to load the secondary. If you have two channels on your scope, hook up both the primary and secondary to the scope.  The frequency won't affect the measurement of turn's ration, but you could set to something reasonable, like 1kHz. And the amplitude should be small enough that you don't overload the transformer, but large enough you can measure it well.
Measure the AC voltage on the primary and secondary and divide the larger by the smaller. You can also just use a multimeter set to measure AC voltage instead of the scope, but set your frequency near 60 Hz to make the meter happy.

The fact that the DC resistance is nearly the same tells you that the wire length is appx the same, which roughly indicates the same amount of turns, but if the wire gauge changed, bets are off.

You could also try to measure the inductance of the transformers for comparison. The inductance is important because the transformer impedance is frequency dependent. A change in core material will change the inductance and core material can be harder to recreate than just winding the right amount of turns.

A 3dB difference is pretty significant. A 10:1 stepdown transformer on a plate output circuit like a C12 drops the level by 20 dB. If the old transformers were 3 dB louder due to the transformer turn's ratio, the drop in level would only be 17 dB, which would mean a turn's ratio of about 7.  { warning math: 20*log(1/10)=-20... 10^(17/20)= 7.07}

 

[ln76d]

Thanks Dan!

I was thinking about the load, because sometimes manufacturers (like beyer) specified measurements under transformer load.
I will back to my measurements in near future, right now i'm little bit busy
I lost my inductance meter, so i have no option right now to measure.

 

[dmp]

You can measure the inductance with a signal generator and scope. Here is all (and more) than you probably wanted to know:
http://www.tek.com/document/application-note/capacitance-and-inductance-measurements-using-oscilloscope-and-function-ge

I recall Beyer does specify the load when posting frequency plots.  But for turn's ratio, the loading doesn't matter.

 

[tonycamp]

I like my new name..

basically to cut a long story short, I purchased what I thought was a vintage C12 at the time. vintage PSU, Vintage Body, Vintage cables and polarity switcher etc, Vintage Capsule etc...

Upon inspecting and researching I found that it was basically a display mic for AKG that Telefunken USA had acquired and retrofitted with their modern Haufe transformer etc... It has a original capsule but it was re-skinned by Telefunken USA.

This is how I came to owning the newer Telefuenken USA Haufe.

I was also building elams at the time with Olivers T14, when completed, I tested against Vintage Elam at paramount studio's here in hollywood.

The first thing I noticed was Neve needed extra 5db click to match levels, The second thing i noticed was the lack of the 3D lower midrange warmth you get out of the vintage one ,so i tried to swap out the tx for the tx in my C12. not much difference. (anyone who's used a vintage c12 / elam will know what i mean about "3d", it sounds stereo although its mono, definitely some magic phase stuff going on)

So i added wet tantalum 3.2uf output cap and massive difference, now it was hard to tell the sound apart BUT level was still lower. I tried 2nd tim cambell capsule, no change, i tried different tube, no change.

Which leads me to believe that the vintage haufe transformer has a lower output ratio and is different spec than published maybe. Another member in the elam thread just acquired a vintage Haufe and confirms this, Ive asked him to check the resistance of the TX for us.

Cheers

Hi J,
can you share what 3.2 wet tantalum you used for your mic, and at what voltage was it rated? Not a whole lot of info out there

thanx
T