Heiserman vs Maiku capsules

[ln76d]

Please remember that you need truly isolated room from the outside sources of noise.
You wouldn't believe how really quiet noise sources can change whole graph.
There are different techniques of measurement known from 60 years or so. If someone is interested in the topic i would suggest to find few different norms (is it right word?) for acoustical measurements of transducers.

 

[Khron]

If the test-signal's comparatively loud versus the "noise pollution" (ie. sound-to-noise ratio), that shouldn't be too much of an issue, i would think.

 

[ln76d]

If the test-signal's comparatively loud versus the "noise pollution" (ie. sound-to-noise ratio), that shouldn't be too much of an issue, i would think.

So you think uncorrect
There's normative specified level and distance from speaker to microphone.
Also remember that any microphone have limited SPL which can handle.
To loud source will give you false response.
To measure low frequeny response you need really well prepared room and really good speaker and amplifier.
For example, in the univeristy where i studied, anechoic chamber was not so bad designed, but there was no option to isolate it from elevator in the building. It was real pain in the *** during polar pattern measurements...

 

[chipss36]

most all are copy's of Neumann capsules,  7, 47, 67,87,  they seem to be consistent with capsule sounds, what also seems to be consistent out of what little I have played with the 87 capsule on the lower end anyway is not only a jagged spike on the high end, but a dip before it making for same major eq work afterwards that never does sound right to me,  saying freq response is useless is very short sighted, and insulting to any mix engineer,  all the Neumann types have a general same sound, and are known, sucks to pay 2,3,5$ a capsule to be told you need not charts on frequency response, just buy em, reeks of used car salesman, if you nailed it, wouldn't you want to show that? If you did not nail it, would you not what to know that?  To get your product closer to the Neumann capsules your cloning? Or is testing too expensive so it's just a shot in the dark? Not following this logic at all guys.  Anyway.
Maiku  capsule arrived, kind of gouged up backplane and diaframs are not centered, just build notes,  no idea how it sounds yet.

 

[kingkorg]

You are right about that dip, but i found that only two vintage original Neumann k67 i have measured so far are very smooth in that high mid range area. And that is the part that bothers me most with clones. Its not that they are bright, it's that dip before peak.

I believe after several months of experimentation with cheap  k67 capsules, changing spacers, combining backplates, widening and filling holes etc. that there is phase cancellation in that area, and that no matter what you do with EQ afterwards some information gets lost in that range and can not be recovered. I thought it was problem with my room, speaker, etc. Until i measured true Neumann.

Sometimes there is resonance peak, that simply lasts. I can even see them on waterfall in REW.

Original Neumann's doesn't have this problem. Cheap c12 copies don't have it either, nor k47!

This doesn't go for Heiserman nor Maiku, as i haven't tried those.

That is the reason i asked for FR charts.

But i feel there are two persons inside me. If i do something very technical, i get very anal about measurements, tests, shootouts...

When i make music, i put a mic in front of singer/instrument and use what ever sounds good, or what's more convenient.

I had a singer lately who was in the zone the second he got in the booth, but tube mic was just turned on. I just replaced it right away with a first FET i could reach, as i just wanted to start recording as soon as possible.

Anyways, here's zoomed in 797 audio's k67 for example. And that is the one i actually prefer.

 

[kingkorg]

And look at this poor guy. This is usual 32mm Alctron/Se/Everyone else capsule. I wonder if even digital eq can do anything with this. This is almost 10db immediate peak.  And several db dip starting from 5k. This has to sound terrible even without hearing it.

 

[ln76d]

most all are copy's of Neumann capsules,  7, 47, 67,87,  they seem to be consistent with capsule sounds, what also seems to be consistent out of what little I have played with the 87 capsule on the lower end anyway is not only a jagged spike on the high end, but a dip before it making for same major eq work afterwards that never does sound right to me,  saying freq response is useless is very short sighted, and insulting to any mix engineer,  all the Neumann types have a general same sound, and are known, sucks to pay 2,3,5$ a capsule to be told you need not charts on frequency response, just buy em, reeks of used car salesman, if you nailed it, wouldn't you want to show that? If you did not nail it, would you not what to know that?  To get your product closer to the Neumann capsules your cloning? Or is testing too expensive so it's just a shot in the dark? Not following this logic at all guys.  Anyway.
Maiku  capsule arrived, kind of gouged up backplane and diaframs are not centered, just build notes,  no idea how it sounds yet.

Does Neumann shows you any graphs of the capsules responses? Or these are graphs for particular microphones responses?
It is a huge difference. Most of the Neumann mcrophones have filtering in the circuit - and not - i'm not saying only about deemphasis network.  Add to this specific headbaskets shapes and many other factors.
Beside that you are paying also for that in the final price which we know what it is.
Which "all the Neumann types have a general same sound"  ?
Because most have different - compare M49 vs.  M149, U67 vs. U87i vs. U87Ai. Add to this sh*tty TLM series.
Last week finished work on U497 with K47 capsule and guess what! This is the very first Neumann, where K47 sounds much more like old M7 than M47 in other Neumann curcuits.
Diaphragms not centered - yeah Neumann also did this in some of TLM series
In the price range of Maiku i wouldn't expect any graphs. Want graphs, pay for Neumann K47 and ask them to make you graph in the flat circuit

 

[ln76d]

And look at this poor guy. This is usual 32mm Alctron/Se/Everyone else capsule. I wonder if even digital eq can do anything with this. This is almost 10db immediate peak.  And several db dip starting from 5k. This has to sound terrible even without hearing it.

Are you sure that your measurements are accurate?
I measured 32mm 3um and 9um capsules and never had 10dB.
Did you used any decent measurement microphone to take first your speaker response and substract it from the final graph?

 

[ln76d]

You are right about that dip, but i found that only two vintage original Neumann k67 i have measured so far are very smooth in that high mid range area. And that is the part that bothers me most with clones. Its not that they are bright, it's that dip before peak.

Make a tiny hole in the back diaphragm (on not coated area) and measure again.

 

[kingkorg]

It's not perfect measuring situation, but i measure them in exact same conditions, loudness, distance, position. These are not subtracted, as my measurement mic is omni, and these are cardioids, i find it a bit dishonest that way. But i can do it now. These 32mm can vary, could be i have a bad one.

However, this is Neumann without deemphasis in same body, schoeps flat circuit. Exact same conditions.

You are right though. If you want Neumann,  capsule is actually not that expensive compared to lower end Neumann mics. It is still cheaper than any Neumann LDC, and cheaper than any u87 clone. I find it actually amazing that they even sell them.

Make a tiny hole in the back diaphragm (on not coated area) and measure again.

Have to try it. Thanks! I actually had a U87 with a hole in back membrane, and it sounded better than good one. To me, at least, and in cardioid mode.

 

[ln76d]

It's not perfect measuring situation, but i measure them in exact same conditions, loudness, distance, position. These are not subtracted, as my measurement mic is omni, and these are cardioids, i find it a bit dishonest that way. But i can do it now. These 32mm can vary, could be i have a bad one.

However, this is Neumann without deemphasis in same body, schoeps flat circuit. Exact same conditions.

You are right though. If you want Neumann,  capsule is actually not that expensive compared to lower end Neumann mics. It is still cheaper than any Neumann LDC, and cheaper than any u87 clone.

Have to try it. Thanks! I actually had a U87 with a hole in back membrane, and it sounded better than good one. To me, at least, and in cardioid mode.

That's why proper measurements should be made in really proper conditions - especially for hi-mid, hi frequency range, even same conditions, can give different results.

Schoeps circuit isn't truly flat, headbasket also would give you different shaping of frequency response for different capsules (especially these which need deemphasis).
Best headbasket should be cylindrical, pretty big diameter, single sided mesh truly opened.
For scheops circuit - hope this isn't 2sk170 on the input, pure cardioid, all HF (including RF) filters should be removed, properly biased FET,  470nF-1uF for LF and good to have switchable polarisation voltage. For example 47-75V in five steps.

Except double sided K47

Many old Neumann capsules had tiny (practically invisible) hole at the backside to compensate preasure.
From what i know - Thiersch still make it in M7 (that's why there are specified sides on his capsules), don't know is the Naumann still make it.

 

[kingkorg]

I agree 100% regarding measurement, but it's a bit of a pattern if all copies exhibit same thing, and only original doesn't.

This is Neuman (red) vs Alctron(blue) minus ecm8000 measurement mic curve. ECM8000 curve used as calibration file. I used smoothing here, as it's too much mess without it.  The dip is clearly visible.

Oddly enough, a mic that matches k67 response in a flat circuit almost 100%, measured in my conditions is Shure KSM44. And it's edge terminated. Already famous for sounding u87ish. However when compared directly, KSM44 sounds brighter, as it doesn't have HF attenuation. 

I could be 100% wrong though. 

 

[stelin]

I agree that measurement don’t say everything, but I don’t agree that they are worthless.

Case in point: When I built my first C12-type mic, I used a C12 capsule from Ben.
My impression was that the mic sounded dark and not how a C12 mic should sound (or how I wanted it to sound). It sounded like it had a big dip around 7 kHz.

Then I was able to buy a C12-capsule from Tim. With that capsule the C12-mic sounded exactly as a C12 should sound (or as I wanted it to sound).

I measured the response of the mic with Ben’s and Tim’s capsules with Fuzzmeasure and used my Behringer 8000 as reference (subtracting Ben’s and Tim’s capsules from the Behringer).  And, indeed, Ben’s capsule had a dip of almost 10dB at 7 kHz. Tim’s capsule did not.

If I had seen a plot of Ben’s capsules frequency response before I would probably not have bought it.
There’s nothing wrong with Ben’s capsules, they are just not tuned the way I want a C12 capsule to sound. I think that I would have been a better informed customer if Ben had published an honest frequency response plot. Ben does not publish any plots (buy it first, decide if you like it later).

On the technical side, I used my ADAM 7X monitor in a well dampened room with Fuzzmeasure that uses sweep measurements. I measured the response in both cardioid, omni and f8 (since the Behringer is an omni mic). The results where the same: Ben’s C12 capsule had a huge dip at 7 kHz compared to Tim’s C12 capsule. That was exactly what I heard when recording with the mic.

 

[kingkorg]

In my every attempt to modify a capsule, every time i do something seriously wrong response either goes telephone like - midrange only, or creates huge dip in area you are describing. Usually has to do with spacers. I even left one this way, as it's instant sibilance killer, but still has a lot of top end

However i am not saying there's anything wrong about Ben's capsule, haven't tried it. 

 

[stelin]

I actually have two of Ben’s C12 capsules. They sound almost the same. I’ve kept them, because if I ever need to build an instant sibilance killer microphone (or two), I have the capsules to do the job.

 

[mics]

I agree that measurement don’t say everything, but I don’t agree that they are worthless.

Case in point: When I built my first C12-type mic, I used a C12 capsule from Ben.
My impression was that the mic sounded dark and not how a C12 mic should sound (or how I wanted it to sound). It sounded like it had a big dip around 7 kHz.

Then I was able to buy a C12-capsule from Tim. With that capsule the C12-mic sounded exactly as a C12 should sound (or as I wanted it to sound).

I measured the response of the mic with Ben’s and Tim’s capsules with Fuzzmeasure and used my Behringer 8000 as reference (subtracting Ben’s and Tim’s capsules from the Behringer).  And, indeed, Ben’s capsule had a dip of almost 10dB at 7 kHz. Tim’s capsule did not.

If I had seen a plot of Ben’s capsules frequency response before I would probably not have bought it.
There’s nothing wrong with Ben’s capsules, they are just not tuned the way I want a C12 capsule to sound. I think that I would have been a better informed customer if Ben had published an honest frequency response plot. Ben does not publish any plots (buy it first, decide if you like it later).

On the technical side, I used my ADAM 7X monitor in a well dampened room with Fuzzmeasure that uses sweep measurements. I measured the response in both cardioid, omni and f8 (since the Behringer is an omni mic). The results where the same: Ben’s C12 capsule had a huge dip at 7 kHz compared to Tim’s C12 capsule. That was exactly what I heard when recording with the mic.

Hi guys.  I’m pretty sure Ben would be happy to reduce the centre spacer by 5um and help you with you desired C12 sound.

Just message him or email.  AKG had several versions of the ck12 and indeed even many of the same version were different sounding!  It can be hard to know which one people want. If you want it bright, we can do that, if you want it cochlear, we can do that too.

Happy to help and you are never stuck with it, it can be modified very easily.  Its never buy first and see if you like it later, its join the family and we’re happy to make it how you want it!

Cheers

 

[granger.frederic]

I realy like the answer
Tim and Ben are producing high level capsules and i'm sure they have the capability to tune them as desired
Does Maiku offer that kind of personalisation ?

 

[Colorblind]

I realy like the answer
Tim and Ben are producing high level capsules and i'm sure they have the capability to tune them as desired
Does Maiku offer that kind of personalisation ?

I'd be very surprised if Maiku or other capsule  makers could offer that kind of customization for a capsule several times cheaper, but I could be wrong!

 

[kingkorg]

This is a DIY forum, we just got a great tip. Just order some different thicknes mylar, or anything else really and experiment with spacers. ;D

I got some fantastic results with  cheap capsules. I still can't nail the parameter that addresses that HF peak tho.

 

[Banzai]

Does Maiku offer that kind of personalisation ?

If you're willing to pay €300-€400 capsule, I'm pretty sure they'll work something out for you...