Help with tube condenser capsule decision - primarily baritone vox and guitar

[midwayfair]

I know this is mostly personal taste and has probably been beaten to death, but here goes.

I picked up a partially completely 251 build to finish. I actually need the budget edge-terminated capsule that's coming with it for a friend who asked me to replace a capsule in one of his mics, so I'm "stuck" getting another capsule for this build. As far as I can tell, I could also use a 47-style. Eric (tskguy) was really helpful and told me that the 87/67 style need a deemphasis circuit, which I don't feel like adding, so it's just between the 2 and 47 style.

I should mention I don't care about things like "vintage correct" or whatever. I just want it to be useful for me.

I know the obvious answer is "one of the really good C12 capsules" but hear me out.

I'm having a really hard time finding examples of baritone vocals or guitar cabinets recorded on a C12. Tons of tenor vocals and female vocals, both for shootouts and on classic records. Acoustic guitar, easy. I'm starting to think there might be a good reason for that: Maybe it's the wrong tool (instead of "not the best possible choice").

I've recorded through a u47-style mic for both of these tasks and I loved it. I've never had the same opportunity to try a C12, and I don't have anything with purportedly similar character. I also don't have a real u47-style, but two of FET mics I have are closer to that.

I don't want to build a mic that's never going to get pulled out of the cabinet, even if it doesn't duplicate my other mics!

The kicker is that I want to finish this for a recording session in mid-December. There are two baritone vocalists and one tenor. We like all the vocals to be nice and clear. I'd like this mic to go on whichever one of us is singing lead at the time, as chances are it'll be better than some of my other options. The other instrumentation is electric guitar, acoustic guitar, and various central Asian/Middle Eastern hand drums. The pres are mostly simple full-range stuff, no EQ going in.

So that's where I am.

In your opinion, if you had to grab either a C12 or a u47 to mic male singers, would you AVOID the C12, or would it just be an artistic choice?

Am I needlessly fretting over a couple decibels of midrange?

My last consideration: The omni mode on a 47 -- which I'm told is what was used on Dylan's vocals -- is vaguely similar frequency response to the cardiod on the C12, and the omni pattern on the C12 frankly doesn't look super useful. Does anyone have any thoughts on the versatility of the patterns in both?

Is there anything I haven't mentioned that would make this an easier decision to make? (Other than the obvious cost difference,)

 

[Bowie]

I'm having a really hard time finding examples of baritone vocals or guitar cabinets recorded on a C12. Tons of tenor vocals and female vocals, both for shootouts and on classic records. Acoustic guitar, easy. I'm starting to think there might be a good reason for that: Maybe it's the wrong tool (instead of "not the best possible choice").

In your opinion, if you had to grab either a C12 or a u47 to mic male singers, would you AVOID the C12, or would it just be an artistic choice?

Am I needlessly fretting over a couple decibels of midrange?

My last consideration: The omni mode on a 47 -- which I'm told is what was used on Dylan's vocals -- is vaguely similar frequency response to the cardiod on the C12, and the omni pattern on the C12 frankly doesn't look super useful. Does anyone have any thoughts on the versatility of the patterns in both?

Is there anything I haven't mentioned that would make this an easier decision to make? (Other than the obvious cost difference,)

  I used to walk that road and my advice would be to abandon it and never again think about who used what gear on which album.  None of it matters because unless you're working in the same room, same gear, same tape machine with the same performers, songs, and selling records in the 1960s, 70's, etc, it's not going to be relevant to what you're doing today, in your studio, with your clients.  Go for whichever capsule makes this mic sound the way you want it to; warmer/brighter/etc.

  As far as a C12/251 not working on male vocals, unless you're re-creating famous recordings, forget what you've heard.  Bono reportedly used an SM57 in the control room on most of his tracks.  And, if Johnny Cash singing into a 414 for the first American album isn't enough to flip the "U47 for baritone/bass" stereotype on it's head, I don't know what is.  Bottom line, mimicking doesn't work.  Base the capsule choice on the tonal qualities you want this mic to have,  Have a variety of mics and find what works best on each source, each track, etc.  That advice may or may not be worth anything but it's the best help I can offer. 

 

[midwayfair]

I'm having a really hard time finding examples of baritone vocals or guitar cabinets recorded on a C12. Tons of tenor vocals and female vocals, both for shootouts and on classic records. Acoustic guitar, easy. I'm starting to think there might be a good reason for that: Maybe it's the wrong tool (instead of "not the best possible choice").

In your opinion, if you had to grab either a C12 or a u47 to mic male singers, would you AVOID the C12, or would it just be an artistic choice?

Am I needlessly fretting over a couple decibels of midrange?

My last consideration: The omni mode on a 47 -- which I'm told is what was used on Dylan's vocals -- is vaguely similar frequency response to the cardiod on the C12, and the omni pattern on the C12 frankly doesn't look super useful. Does anyone have any thoughts on the versatility of the patterns in both?

Is there anything I haven't mentioned that would make this an easier decision to make? (Other than the obvious cost difference,)

  I used to walk that road and my advice would be to abandon it and never again think about who used what gear on which album.  None of it matters because unless you're working in the same room, same gear, same tape machine with the same performers, songs, and selling records in the 1960s, 70's, etc, it's not going to be relevant to what you're doing today, in your studio, with your clients.  Go for whichever capsule makes this mic sound the way you want it to; warmer/brighter/etc.

  As far as a C12/251 not working on male vocals, unless you're re-creating famous recordings, forget what you've heard.  Bono reportedly used an SM57 in the control room on most of his tracks.  And, if Johnny Cash singing into a 414 for the first American album isn't enough to flip the "U47 for baritone/bass" stereotype on it's head, I don't know what is.  Bottom line, mimicking doesn't work.  Base the capsule choice on the tonal qualities you want this mic to have,  Have a variety of mics and find what works best on each source, each track, etc.  That advice may or may not be worth anything but it's the best help I can offer. 

Yeah, I mean, I basically know all this stuff. I chide people for trying to recreate live with guitar pedals parts recorded through mics into preamps through consoles onto tape. And like I said, I'm not big on historical accuracy or anything like that, and I 100% use whatever mic I have available that I think is right for the situation. I did an entire album in February using a Sennheiser MK4 and by the end of it got really good at knowing where to put it. One of my favorite lead guitar tracks I ever recorded was done with an SM57 sitting in a clothes drier 15 feet away from the amp. Another was done when the engineer accidentally hit record on the wrong mic channel and instead of the 121 on the cab it was some other mic sitting in the middle of the room.

So yeah, I recognize that it's all ultimately an artistic choice and great music can be made on pretty much anything, and that all mics are just tools. That's not my worry.

My problem is I really have almost no frame of reference for a C12/251, and I don't want to be in a situation where I never reach for the mic because I simply don't record stuff that it's great on when a simple matter of a different capsule.

I realized after typing out that post that I do at least have a good frame of reference for "what  I should shoot for" -- I e-mailed the engineer my band usually works with to find out if he EQed the u47 clone he has. If he didn't touch the EQ, I might go for the 47 capsule. If he had to add treble, cut the mids, or add low end, then I'll definitely go with the 12. So  we'll see when he can get back into the studio computer.