He's really left the group this time...

[hodad]

For everybody who advocates for open borders, do your lock your doors/windows?

Our country is made stronger by legal immigration, illegal immigration is illegal.

Okay, but is our country made stronger by illegal immigration?  I've known one or two illegals--hard workers, kept mostly on the straight & narrow aside from a bit of drinking and excessive weapons fire on New Year's Eve.  Who do you think is picking the food you eat out of the fields?  By and large it's folks from Latin America--legal and illegal.  Same with poultry processing plants. 
But they're not really "stealing" these jobs.  Some years back there was an immigration raid on a poultry plant on rural Georgia.  The plant offered substantially higher wages than what they'd been paying their illegal employees and still could not get any locals to take the jobs.  They're hard jobs at lousy wages, and most native-born Americans just aren't desperate enough to take them.
So what are you going to do?  Get rid of all illegals and jack up wages for chicken pluckers and melon tossers to the point that native-born Americans will actually work the jobs?  How much will folks' 4th of July watermelons cost then?  What kind of premium are folks going to pay for a chicken that's plucked by an Amurrican? 
It's not as simple a problem as "illegals are illegal."  American business thrives on that labor market, and it keeps grocery prices from skyrocketing.  And that, of course, is an oversimplification as well.
And another facet:  punishing and demonizing wannabe illegal immigrants is not fixing any of the problems that these folks are escaping from.  And let's face it:  US policy has been causing major problems in Latin America since the days of Sam Zemurray, if not before.  A large portion of the responsibility for illegal immigration from Central America falls on US foreign policy. 
So is that fixable?  Can the US undo the damage of more than a century of economic colonialism?  Has anyone thought to try discouraging illegal immigration by trying to improve conditions in the illegals' home countries?  I'm not at all sure the US is capable as a nation of doing such a thing, but if folks are worried about all those Spanish speaking brown people, it's certainly an approach to consider. 

So, yeah.  Simplistic slogans don't encapsulate the complexity of the issue, Simplistic "solutions" like a poorly built wall aren't going to solve it.  Shortsighted deterrents like family separation and the Trump concentration camps aren't befitting of this nation. 

 

[Winston OBoogie]

Disclaimer:
Updates are only accurate as of actual time of update.

Otherwise, I'd still be 21 and  in bed with a couple of gorgeous Danish girls.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Okay, but is our country made stronger by illegal immigration?  I've known one or two illegals--hard workers, kept mostly on the straight & narrow aside from a bit of drinking and excessive weapons fire on New Year's Eve.  Who do you think is picking the food you eat out of the fields?  By and large it's folks from Latin America--legal and illegal.  Same with poultry processing plants. 
But they're not really "stealing" these jobs.  Some years back there was an immigration raid on a poultry plant on rural Georgia.  The plant offered substantially higher wages than what they'd been paying their illegal employees and still could not get any locals to take the jobs.  They're hard jobs at lousy wages, and most native-born Americans just aren't desperate enough to take them.
So what are you going to do?  Get rid of all illegals and jack up wages for chicken pluckers and melon tossers to the point that native-born Americans will actually work the jobs?  How much will folks' 4th of July watermelons cost then?  What kind of premium are folks going to pay for a chicken that's plucked by an Amurrican? 
It's not as simple a problem as "illegals are illegal."  American business thrives on that labor market, and it keeps grocery prices from skyrocketing.  And that, of course, is an oversimplification as well.
And another facet:  punishing and demonizing wannabe illegal immigrants is not fixing any of the problems that these folks are escaping from.  And let's face it:  US policy has been causing major problems in Latin America since the days of Sam Zemurray, if not before.  A large portion of the responsibility for illegal immigration from Central America falls on US foreign policy. 
So is that fixable?  Can the US undo the damage of more than a century of economic colonialism?  Has anyone thought to try discouraging illegal immigration by trying to improve conditions in the illegals' home countries?  I'm not at all sure the US is capable as a nation of doing such a thing, but if folks are worried about all those Spanish speaking brown people, it's certainly an approach to consider. 

So, yeah.  Simplistic slogans don't encapsulate the complexity of the issue, Simplistic "solutions" like a poorly built wall aren't going to solve it.  Shortsighted deterrents like family separation and the Trump concentration camps aren't befitting of this nation.

This is another very old and tired political argument. Both parties have chosen to avoid immigration reform over the years for different reasons, but it gives them both political talking points to energize their respective bases.

Ignore the man (or woman) behind the curtain....

JR

 

[scott2000]

  Who do you think is picking the food you eat out of the fields?  By and large it's folks from Latin America--legal and illegal.  Same with poultry processing plants. 

I agree... When I was driving through AZ and TX there were mega miles of areas that were clearly like this and everything seemed pretty chill when you see the interactions of everyone in these areas.
Definitely no shortage of land here in the US to take in many many more if I had to guess....
Not sure how infrastructure and home building etc would go down.... Probably doesn't(suburbs and shopping malls etc.) matter to many...but it's easy to see the challenges that there could be in getting some good roads,power and water, etc..... To some areas....

How many jobs in these farms and factories are even available at this point ??
Would be interesting to hear if everyone here visiting or working was offered citizenship, how many would take it ...and  of those that would, if they would want stricter immigration after a while...

 

[living sounds]

"Legal" by itself doesn't mean much, substantially.

People in the Trump administration (Stephen Miller comes to mind) and those the administration is associated with ideologically (like Bannon) largely are aiming to abolish the right to asylum. They have been constantly working on narrowing the definition on what constitutes "legal" immigration, especially for people which they don't consider to be contributing to immediate economic growth or which they dislike based on their ethnocentric views.

And, as everyone knows, they have been fueling the anti-immigrant flames to deflect from the massive inequality that plagues the US, from the uneven playing field, the distortions of late-term neoliberal capitalism that are to blame for the white rural working man's demise. A situation the same GOP helped bring about by fighting Unions, lowering taxes for the rich, cutting regulations etc.

It's not a simple question of "legal" immigration.

 

[Whoops]

JR do you really need another thread to endlessly justify the idiot behaviour of USA ex-president?
How many threads do you personally need?

Have Fun Guys

 

[hodad]

This is another very old and tired political argument. Both parties have chosen to avoid immigration reform over the years for different reasons, but it gives them both political talking points to energize their respective bases.

JR

Okay.  Old and tired.  Got it.

 

[boji]

Both parties have chosen to avoid immigration reform over the years for different reasons, but it gives them both political talking points to energize their respective bases.

Also it is in the corporate interest to keep us divided on this issue. If we came together over wages our congressional leaders would lose all their generous campaign support.

 

[Winston OBoogie]

Interesting word time folks:

'stiffrump' (18th century): an obstinate and haughty individual who refuses to budge no matter what.

 

[hodad]

Georgia's Republican Secretary of State received wide, bipartisan praise for his handling of the election until Trump started losing.  Then Republican pressure mounted, and suddenly he became a villain to our 2 extraordinarily vile, Trump-loving Senators.  (Of course, it doesn't help that our Trump-loving Governor is a former SOS who knows more than a little about abusing that office for political gain.)  Now Georgia is beginning a hand recount, possibly at taxpayer expense, because why wouldn't we waste money on this process?  The most a state level recount has ever moved the needle is less than 1500 votes.  Biden's lead is over 14,000.  So if the recount is done properly, it would take a miracle for Trump to overcome Biden's lead.  But seriously, does anyone trust Republicans on anything anymore?

 

[groselicain]

Why is it that when people get what they want, they're still not happy?

 

[scott2000]

Pretty sure all you have to do is look up which states  Biden won and which ones went to Trump and you'll have your answer.

I've almost put together the puzzle on how I'll make my next mortgage payment using this ... It's pretty great....

 

[Recording Engineer]

Both parties have chosen to avoid immigration reform over the years for different reasons, but it gives them both political talking points to energize their respective bases.

Regardless of how true that may or may not be, someone actually thinks the current administration’s approach is a reasonable attempt to actually deal with the problem? Apparently plenty do. Way way too many. However, to me, anyone who does seems to be doing nothing more than sucking up today’s KKK’s (or the like) political arm talking points, rewritten for the American people to swallow.

 

[hodad]

Why is it that when people get what they want, they're still not happy?

Because Trump refuses to concede an election he clearly lost?  Because far too many Republican politicians would be all too happy to march in lock step with him en route to subverting American democracy?  When Trump concedes, I'll relax. 

EDIT:  Add to that all the suspicious maneuvering Trump is doing--firing Esper, on the verge of firing Wray and Haspel, and installing Trump loyalists in their place.  That's a lot of yes-men in positions of great power working for a president who is absolutely amoral and free of empathy or concern for the lives of others.

 

[Winston OBoogie]

AP:

Lizz Truss, the UK's secretary for international trade, has just signed a new post Brexit trade agreement with Four Seasons Total Landscaping. 

The agreement, brokered by Rudy Giuliani (of Borat fame), is thought to be the first step in securing a broader 'special relationship' trading status that will also include Fantasy Island book store. 

End. 

 

[Winston OBoogie]

EDIT:  Add to that all the suspicious maneuvering Trump is doing--firing Esper, on the verge of firing Wray and Haspel, and installing Trump loyalists in their place.  That's a lot of yes-men in positions of great power working for a president who is absolutely amoral and free of empathy or concern for the lives of others.

In all seriousness, I was viewing the initial posturing by the Trump campaign as possibly "performance art" ?. Which only served as a further embarrassment to him so:  Whatever!

But I am getting a little concerned now, what with the number of Repubs. who have lined up behind him with the same spiel.
Currently 12 legal cases that have failed at the first hurdle with these spurious claims.  So why continue with the charade? 
It's quite shocking to see the apparent number of Americans who are convinced this was a stolen election. 
This starts getting into dangerous territory in my opinion. 

If this were a 3rd country that we were looking at, we'd be right to be concerned. 

 

[Scodiddly]

For everybody who advocates for open borders, do your lock your doors/windows?

Let's practice a little situational awareness.

If somebody's going to really rip me off, like take me for most or all of my worth, it won't be somebody with brown skin and perhaps a 'z' in their last name.  It won't even be somebody wearing a hoodie.  It'll be a white man in a business suit, doing something like denying my insurance claim after I'm diagnosed with cancer.  Or screwing with the economy enough to make my mortgage go under water.  It'll be somebody born and bred right here in America.

 

[hodad]

If this were a 3rd country that we were looking at, we'd be right to be concerned.

We're right to be concerned in the US as well.  Consider that in Georgia, one district elected a Qanon true believer to Congress.  She garnered 75% of the vote, too. (Her opponent was ill-prepared and scared for his life & basically abandoned the race, but still....)  And GOP legislators have shown just how willing they are to subvert any principles they may have left if it allows them to retain power. 

I think if there is enough backlash to Trump's lunacy, things will be okay.  But at long last, sir, Trump and the rest of his GOP toadies have no sense of decency.

 

[Whoops]

So why continue with the charade? 

Some people just don't know how to loose

 

[CJ]

it is amazing with all the enemies the orange idiot has made that no one has popped him, or at least slugged him in the mouth. how many lives has that guy screwed up?

about 325 people have been fired or resigned under rump.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Trump_administration_dismissals_and_resignations

howabout that new lunatic running the pentagon, jeeezus h chhrrrrist!



'covid covid covid, that's all you hear..."

well i wonder why dumbass! nice job!

i wonder how many of these cases came from rump rallies?