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How would they, if they sit in privatized prisons payed for by the taxpayer for decades because getting caught with a little Cannabis 3 times?
Oversimplification. Very few people have been sent to prison for any length of time for three simple possession charges. Most get caught with more (intent to distribute), or for selling to a minor, or for weapons charges.

Wouldn't it be nice if problems and solutions were simple? Reality is a lot more complicated.
Says the guy who thinks the criminal world is binary (serious offenders and small timers).

Have a look at how scandinavian countries have dealt with crime and the convicted in recent decades, it is clearly working much better than the indiscriminately (and often applied discriminately against minorities) aggressive approach.
We are not Scandanavia. We have much more diversity, a wider range of living conditions and local culture, a much larger country, and a huge problem with single parent families (boys raised with no father figure are much more likely to end up in trouble with the law).
 
Look at what San Francisco has become in the last decade. It used to be a great place to visit, walk around, have a nice meal, see a concert. The policies you espouse have turned it into a craphole.
Nah… SF the last few decades have been pretty-much the same to me… More or less, sure. When you really notice it more, you also notice it up and down the entire West Coast.
 
Nah… SF the last few decades have been pretty-much the same to me… More or less, sure. When you really notice it more, you also notice it up and down the entire West Coast.
I first started going to SF regularly when dating my ex-wife in the mid-90s. If you can't see the difference, that's on you. I also have a friend and former coworker who was born and raised in old blue-collar SF (several generations of his family lived there). He couldn't stand it anymore and sold his grandmother's home (that he'd inherited and fixed up) to move elsewhere. He loved it up there--enough to make a 50+ mile commute to work on 101 every day. Just look at the car break-in numbers or the shoplifting.

Same policies being implemented in Portland, Seattle, Los Angeles, etc. so no surprise the whole west coast is turning to crap.
 
the broken windows strategy suggests that cleaning up low level crime reduces all crime. AFAIK it was executed successfully in NYC decades ago.. Mayor Adams sounds like he is dusting it off for another try... not sure how far he will get with DA Brag letting everybody go.

JR
Well in my daughters case its a matter of funding...they are down almost 30% in personnelle and crime has not dropped that much, it simply becomes a matter of which crimes can the DA actually get convictions on and which of those protect the community the most... its a semi-rural area in California...and its not like the DA's office has cut its budget, they just can't get people to work in a thankless job for very long.

She works an average of 60+ hours a week on a salary and takes work home with her...then tries to run a household with 2 teenagers and a a couple more in college living at home...of the DA's that started with her not one of them is still at work there...
 
Well in my daughters case its a matter of funding...they are down almost 30% in personnelle and crime has not dropped that much, it simply becomes a matter of which crimes can the DA actually get convictions on and which of those protect the community the most... its a semi-rural area in California...and its not like the DA's office has cut its budget, they just can't get people to work in a thankless job for very long.

She works an average of 60+ hours a week on a salary and takes work home with her...then tries to run a household with 2 teenagers and a a couple more in college living at home...of the DA's that started with her not one of them is still at work there...
It's demoralizing for people who work to prevent crime, catch criminals, and prosecute them when a large segment of society demeans them and unfairly stigmatizes the entirety of policing and the criminal justice system as "racist" based on a few bad apples (who deserve to lose their jobs and, in some cases, be prosecuted themselves). Add to that the DAs in big leftist cities who actively subvert criminal justice, a legislature who seem more concerned with the rights of criminals than law-abiding citizens, and a lot of people will quit or move to another place.
 
the broken windows strategy suggests that cleaning up low level crime reduces all crime. AFAIK it was executed successfully in NYC decades ago.. Mayor Adams sounds like he is dusting it off for another try... not sure how far he will get with DA Brag letting everybody go.

JR
Wrong in so many ways I don’t know where to start. Talk about ridiculous statistics. Arrest poor kids for jumping subway turnstyles and call it crime reduction. Harrass and frisk was eventually to be a fourth amendment violation. For the amount of harassment the crime reduction was minuscule.

In case it’s not obvious Guiliani isn’t a genius. He’s a degenerate drunk. Kerrick is a convicted felon. They made a show of being tough by picking on those who couldn’t fight back.

Adam’s isn’t cracking down on people dancing. He’s not Disneyfiying the city as the expense of those who can’t fight back. Adams doesn’t make a show of being tough.

Let me know when you figure out how to get crime as low in Mississippi. That’s a dangerous place.
 
This is a guy who was never sent to prison before and had gotten off with no serious punishment for prior gun and drug offenses. He was 23 at the time of the last crime (murder, attempted murder, conspiracy, plus gun charges) and was the leader of a gang. He led three other younger men 18 and 19 to ambush and attempt to kill a rival gang member (also a felon and illegally in possession of a pistol).

After the trial I stayed for the sentencing hearing and heard various family members beg the judge for leniency. After sentencing the prosecutor spoke to those of us who stayed. He told us that one of the younger guys had gotten involved with the gang stuff as a teen and that his mother had tried to get him involved in sports and other activities. When that didn't work she moved her whole family to another city three hours away. The kid found a way to come back to the town with his gang and participated in a violent shootout in a crowded apartment complex in the middle of the day.

These are the people doing the majority of the crime. They have no place in a civil society. They show no remorse. Their families cannot correct the problem. So save your preaching for something you've experienced.


"Small timers" often move up to major crimes without having been to prison. Why should the rest of society be forced to tolerate crime? Look at what San Francisco has become in the last decade. It used to be a great place to visit, walk around, have a nice meal, see a concert. The policies you espouse have turned it into a craphole.
I think we are in agreement that dangerous violent criminals should not be let loose on civil society.

What is lacking here are considerations regarding the causes of criminal behaviour and remedies beyond application of punishment. The comparatively high incidence of (violent) crime in the US, even today and despite the "land of the free" having the highest incarceration rate worldwide, begs the question for the root causes.

There always appears a pattern of adverserial thinking in public discourse today. One side vs. the other side. Tiring. But policing, public policy, government is not a football match of one side vs. another. It's a complex web of multifactored causes and interactions.

Looking, again, at the US, the majority of violent crime happens in the poorest areas by the poorest members of society perpetrated on the poorest members of society. You cited Chicago above. I was there this month. Downtown, in the most affluent neighborhoods, you're pretty much as safe as in any European city. Between every two blocks there is a police car parked with the blue lights on 24/7. Very weird, to European eyes, to be honest. When you get to the less well off areas the situation changes. You hardly ever see a police car in areas where barber shop windows have holes from gun shots. And we - obviously - never even went to the really bad neighborhoods in the west or on the South Side. The people in these areas have no trust in police. Even the victims will not cooperate with an investigation against the perpetrator. They fear for their lives and are very much aware that the police won't make sure they are secure.

Looking, again, at that National Murder Rate Chart - why was crime so much lower in the early 60s? Why did it go through the roof? Why did it follow a similar trajectory in most industrialized countries? Hint: It wasn't enforcement.
 
I think we are in agreement that dangerous violent criminals should not be let loose on civil society.
Good. Are habitual non-violent offenders (burglars, robbers, shoplifters, drug dealers, etc.) just to be tolerated by the rest of society?

What is lacking here are considerations regarding the causes of criminal behaviour and remedies beyond application of punishment.
In my view those are the most important, but they are largely outside the purview of government. Morals, ethics, and values are instilled by family, church, and other civil institutions. They cannot be taught by the great grey bureaucracies. That is part of what has failed here in the US.

The comparatively high incidence of (violent) crime in the US, even today and despite the "land of the free" having the highest incarceration rate worldwide, begs the question for the root causes.

Because government's only viable role in public safety is applying the law after the offense has occurred. There is no pre-crime policing. Presumption of innocence and right to privacy among other key components of our society prevent that, thankfully.

There always appears a pattern of adverserial thinking in public discourse today. One side vs. the other side. Tiring. But policing, public policy, government is not a football match of one side vs. another. It's a complex web of multifactored causes and interactions.
It's adversarial because so many bad ideas have been implemented that had obvious unintended consequences and those same ideas are continually promulgated by the next generation who are blind to the failings in recent history. Sincerity is not enough. Solutions must be viable in the real world. It must be accepted that some problems cannot be solved by government.

Looking, again, at the US, the majority of violent crime happens in the poorest areas by the poorest members of society perpetrated on the poorest members of society.

Yes, despite decades of spending and investment in various government programs intended to help. Rather than proposing more of the same, it would be sensible to take a rational look at why do many previous programs have failed to improve the situation (and in some cases have arguably made it worse).

You cited Chicago above. I was there this month. Downtown, in the most affluent neighborhoods, you're pretty much as safe as in any European city.
Perhaps in a very small area.

Between every two blocks there is a police car parked with the blue lights on 24/7.
Pics.

Very weird, to European eyes, to be honest. When you get to the less well off areas the situation changes. You hardly ever see a police car in areas where barber shop windows have holes from gun shots.

Do you not recall the riots of 2020? The "defund the police" movement?

And we - obviously - never even went to the really bad neighborhoods in the west or on the South Side. The people in these areas have no trust in police.

Or is it that they fear retribution from the criminal gangs? Snitches get stitches (or worse) as the saying goes. This is part of the breakdown of the civil society. If people are unwilling to stand up for what is right and good in their own neighborhoods, how can they expect outsiders to fix things?

Even the victims will not cooperate with an investigation against the perpetrator. They fear for their lives and are very much aware that the police won't make sure they are secure.
It is virtually impossible to ensure that. During the jury selection process for the previously mentioned trial, each prospective juror in the pool of about 150 was called by number. When called, the juror stood in the full courtroom in front of members of the public, press, the accused on trial, the various lawyers, etc. and stated their full name, town of residence, occupation, spouse's name and occupation, and age. This allows the lawyers to start paring down the jury and removing people they think are biased. It also puts the eventual jurors at risk. Yet each of the 12 (plus 3 alternates) accept that risk in order to perform that important civic duty.

Looking, again, at that National Murder Rate Chart - why was crime so much lower in the early 60s? Why did it go through the roof?
Look at the social turmoil of that era and the resulting government programs. What changes were initiated that started breaking down the core family structure in certain segments of society that were previously very family oriented?

Why did it follow a similar trajectory in most industrialized countries?
Got links to such comparative data? I'd be interested in seeing that.

Hint: It wasn't enforcement.
I never said it was. Enforcement is just the main tool our government has. It doesn't often "fix" the individual who is incarcerated. I'd argue that it is up to the individual and their family/friends to do that. Of the cases I've seen where criminals reformed themselves successfully, it was due to the influence of a close friend, family member, or pastor coupled with innate will to turn themselves around. If a person doesn't want to change no external force can make them. Some (most?) criminals cannot be "fixed." Hence removal from civil society becomes the only viable option to protect the rest of society from them.
 
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Wrong in so many ways I don’t know where to start. Talk about ridiculous statistics. Arrest poor kids for jumping subway turnstyles and call it crime reduction. Harrass and frisk was eventually to be a fourth amendment violation. For the amount of harassment the crime reduction was minuscule.
www said:
broken windows theory, academic theory proposed by James Q. Wilson and George Kelling in 1982 that used broken windows as a metaphor for disorder within neighbourhoods. Their theory links disorder and incivility within a community to subsequent occurrences of serious crime. Broken windows theory had an enormous impact on police policy throughout the 1990s and remained influential into the 21st ...
I only mentioned it in passing because Mayor Adams did... He seems a bit overwhelmed with the job.
In case it’s not obvious Guiliani isn’t a genius. He’s a degenerate drunk. Kerrick is a convicted felon. They made a show of being tough by picking on those who couldn’t fight back.
I understand that they are considered persona non grata in liberal circles for their support of ex-President Trump.
Adam’s isn’t cracking down on people dancing. He’s not Disneyfiying the city as the expense of those who can’t fight back. Adams doesn’t make a show of being tough.
He appears to be constantly making a show of something but that is modern politics.
Let me know when you figure out how to get crime as low in Mississippi. That’s a dangerous place.
Thank you for your concern

WWW said:
Scott Colom—Circuit Court District Sixteen, Mississippi. Another of the lesser-known Soros-funded Das, Colom quietly received over $926,000 in funding from Soros to help unseat a long-time incumbent in 2015. Colom oversees District 16 in Mississippi, which includes Lowndes, Oktibbeha, Clay, and Noxubee Counties. Colom was recently recommended by Rep. Bernie Thompson (D-MS) for a position as a judge for the U.S. District Court of the Northern District of Mississippi. Meanwhile, violent crime, specifically gun violence, remains a serious and growing problem for cities and counties in the 16th Circuit, a problem that Colom has been accused of doing little to combat.

Jody Owens—Hinds County, Mississippi. Aided by a $500,000 contributionfrom Soros’s Mississippi Justice and Public Safety PAC, Owens was elected in 2019 after running on a platform that promised reform and “alternatives to incarceration.” Owens brought controversy with him to the DA’s office. In 2019, Owens was accused of sexually harassing his female colleagues while working at the Southern Poverty Law Center, an organization with a well-documented proclivity for enabling and ignoring sexual harassment in the workplace.

Owens has also recently brought highly questionable murder charges against two police officers. The charges were dismissed with prejudice for lack of evidence that officers “caused any injury” to the alleged victim. Under Owens, Jackson has become one of the deadliest cities in the nation, and in 2021 the city saw over 150 homicides (98 murders per 100,000 residents), an all-time high.

Indeed Jackson, MS is one of the deadliest cities around... Thank you Soros. 🤔 I don't live near Jackson and haven't gone there for decades. I have flow in and out of the Jackson airport a couple times for business.

JR
 
Indeed Jackson, MS is one of the deadliest cities around... Thank you Soros. 🤔 I don't live near Jackson and haven't gone there for decades. I have flow in and out of the Jackson airport a couple times for business.

JR
The crime rate in the state of Mississippi is higher than in the city of New York. There are more people in NY than in the state of Mississippi. Mississippi is a dangerous place statewide.
 
The crime rate in the state of Mississippi is higher than in the city of New York. There are more people in NY than in the state of Mississippi. Mississippi is a dangerous place statewide.
Again thank you for your concern and lecturing me about MS. :rolleyes: I generally don't watch the local news because it reminds me of where I live. I recorded one news program last week to watch because I heard about a killing in Meridian (25 miles from my home). I won't repeat the details so you guys don't call me racist.

I grew up in a suburb of NYC (northern NJ) so have memories from that childhood. Mostly hearing/reading news reports about violence in NYC. I also did numerous trade shows in NYC over the decades and recall lots of drama dealing with trade show union workers. I perceived a qualitative difference after Mayor Giuliani cleaned the mob out of several NYC trades.

Of course my personal experience does not trump yours as a current resident, it is the only personal experience I have. Enjoy your low crime city environment. ;)

JR

PS: The northwest seems to be getting out of control but I guess those residents who haven't escaped already are OK with it. It is painful to watch SF in decline. It was a great city I enjoyed visiting.
 
The crime rate in the state of Mississippi is higher than in the city of New York. There are more people in NY than in the state of Mississippi. Mississippi is a dangerous place statewide.
Not according to this data.

https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/ny/new-york/crime
24.83 crimes per 1000 pop (bottom 15%)

https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/ms/crime
20.41 crimes per 1000 pop. 2.54 violent crimes per 1k pop.

Hickory is at 7.32 crimes per 1k pop, none violent. Better than 63% of places.

https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/ms/hickory/crime
Enjoy!
 
Just an observation...

This does bring up an interesting anecdote from my childhood...I remember living in Pauls Valley Oklahoma when I was in 5th grade...down the street from us about a block away a man got drunk and beat his wife to death...this was a blue collar farming town mostly...I can still remember the absolute shock I felt and the entire town felt to a brutal alcoholic rage induced murder...it stands out in my memory as the only real time I was shocked by crime as a young person...it felt (and still feels) intrusive...unnatural...

I'm sure there was probably more crime happening than I was aware of at that age in that town...but that event stands out in my memory as my first real exposure to violent crime.

Some 50+ years later I have no knowledge of living so close to the occurrence of a violent crime...and i have lived in large cities surrounded by all kinds of people with a mixture of good and bad I'm sure. Theft happens, and small petty crimes are things I try to stay aware of, locking doors (and Bikes!) with all due caution...


But truthfully violent crime is not as common to the average person as the news reports make it feel...there are probably members here who have been close to violent crime, but for the most part, even here it's probably rarer than our thinking assumes...
 
Just an observation...

This does bring up an interesting anecdote from my childhood...I remember living in Pauls Valley Oklahoma when I was in 5th grade...down the street from us about a block away a man got drunk and beat his wife to death...this was a blue collar farming town mostly...I can still remember the absolute shock I felt and the entire town felt to a brutal alcoholic rage induced murder...it stands out in my memory as the only real time I was shocked by crime as a young person...it felt (and still feels) intrusive...unnatural...

I'm sure there was probably more crime happening than I was aware of at that age in that town...but that event stands out in my memory as my first real exposure to violent crime.

Some 50+ years later I have no knowledge of living so close to the occurrence of a violent crime...and i have lived in large cities surrounded by all kinds of people with a mixture of good and bad I'm sure. Theft happens, and small petty crimes are things I try to stay aware of, locking doors (and Bikes!) with all due caution...


But truthfully violent crime is not as common to the average person as the news reports make it feel...there are probably members here who have been close to violent crime, but for the most part, even here it's probably rarer than our thinking assumes...
I have lived long enough to have personally experienced multiple crimes.

Our (rental) house in Westport CT was robbed (they stole my roommates AR-15 but IIRC the police recovered that). My parents home in Westchester county, NY was robbed (the idiots only took one of the two AR4x speakers). I had a thug pull a knife on me in a back alley in Boston back in the 60s, the knife wasn't very sharp (nor was he) and I managed to back away and disengage without any loss of blood or treasure. I ended up going into the back door of the building next door to avoid his crew standing behind my building. I had my motorcycle stolen from my house in Monroe CT, while I was home. I gave the police the friggin idiots license plate number, and they found my bike within 24 hours. However the police held onto my bike for several months as evidence until I threatened them with damage charges for storing it without proper servicing.

So far in Hickory I have had one pair of sunglasses stolen out of my car parked in my carport (I don't lock it), but a couple of my neighbors have suffered some petty thefts.

For a recent local Hickory crime wave some puke broke though the glass partition between the post office lobby, and service area. I don't know what they got if anything, but remember the light show from the police cars after it happened (I live right across the street from the PO).
====

I have walked around alone in several of the big cites we see in the nightly news. One time in New Orleans I was walking in a dicey section of the french quarter and an under cover cop stopped me and suggested that I not wander around there alone (New Orleans has gotten a lot worse since then). I would routinely walk around in Manhattan, Chicago, and SF while attending trade shows.

These days I am not so comfortable doing that, but it is not my immediate problem any more. Good luck to all the citizens of large cities, and small. Us country mice will be OK.

JR
 
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I can google statistics too. I don’t care enough to flood the thread with text. Wearing out a debate opponent is an excellent way to win. Congratulations!
But you didn't and you don't have the data to back your smug assertions. Your weak excuses don't help your case. Maybe admit you were wrong and move along.
 
Reading comprehension obviously isn’t your strong suit. I already conceded.
Your "concession" was to "flooding the thread with text" and your admitted unwillingness to look up basic data. I read it just fine. You did not admit your assertion that NYC has lower crime than MS (or the implication that JR was in a more dangerous area than you are) was flat wrong.
 

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