If only two mics... ?

[emrr]

The Oktava MK-012 hyper is their best capsule; very flat response, even off-axis. It's pattern is a bit odd, though; rather closer to cardioid, but not supercardioid either . . .

Ya know, NOW everyone is saying that, but for a solid 20 years it was the omni everyone thought was best, and I still think so today. I dumped the hypers as fast as I could. FWIW!

 

[k brown]

Ya know, NOW everyone is saying that, but for a solid 20 years it was the omni everyone thought was best, and I still think so today. I dumped the hypers as fast as I could. FWIW!

I don't know if they've changed or not, but I got mine as hand-culled matched pairs via the now-defunct Sound Room, about 20 years ago. A pair each of the omnis, cards and 'hypercards', and the hypers were the clear winner as far as flatness of response (the only one of the three which has no lift at the top; that lack of lift leads many to find it dull); and the hypers are far flatter at 180 degrees than the cards.

The flatness at the top makes them excellent for Classical spots.

The omnis are very nice as well, but can be a bit bloated and 'wooly' at the bottom.

 

[emrr]

I don't know if they've changed or not, but I got mine as hand-culled matched pairs via the now-defunct Sound Room, about 20 years ago. A pair each of the omnis, cards and 'hypercards', and the hypers were the clear winner as far as flatness of response (the only one of the three which has no lift at the top; that lack of lift leads many to find it dull); and the hypers are far flatter at 180 degrees than the cards.

The flatness at the top makes them excellent for Classical spots.

The omnis are very nice as well, but can be a bit bloated and 'wooly' at the bottom.

My hypers were from the first stuff brought into the US in 1996, I selected 'best' and 'matched' sets of capsules out of a lot of 30 mics. They were all thin and spikey sounding compared to cardioid and omni. The omni's I use the most by far. Both definitely need HPF or low shelf cut to deal with air movement or handling noise. I do have a newer set of omni capsules from about 2010, pretty much the same as the 1996 sets I have.

The omni's get used on piano on a live broadcast gig, preference of the producer over the MKH20's I used to bring; the particular piano needs some softer wool to his ears, I don't disagree.

I mainly just think it's interesting I'm reading multiple pref for the hyper recently and that was never the case in what I read previously.

 

[k brown]

My hypers were from the first stuff brought into the US in 1996, I selected 'best' and 'matched' sets of capsules out of a lot of 30 mics. They were all thin and spikey sounding compared to cardioid and omni. The omni's I use the most by far. Both definitely need HPF or low shelf cut to deal with air movement or handling noise. I do have a newer set of omni capsules from about 2010, pretty much the same as the 1996 sets I have.

The omni's get used on piano on a live broadcast gig, preference of the producer over the MKH20's I used to bring; the particular piano needs some softer wool to his ears, I don't disagree.

I mainly just think it's interesting I'm reading multiple pref for the hyper recently and that was never the case in what I read previously.

That's really interesting (and a bit alarming) - mine are the exact opposite; buttery smooth, obviously less low end than the omnis but the least 'spiky' of the three, and the least 'spiky' of any SDCs I have. In fact they are touch midrange-y. They're my preferred spots on violin concerti!

They sound pretty much exactly like these plots show, except for having a bit less bump near the top:

 

[k brown]

Here's a clip of a pair of the hypers over drums in the pit orch for a rehearsal of "Follies"; iso of just the Oktavas with none of the other mics mixed. Raw clip; no EQ or processing.



And a bit as mains on orchestra rehearsal, without the omni pair they were finally mixed with, and w/o the reverb that was added. Again with no EQ or processing.



Kind thoughts for the musicians - they were an all-volunteer community orchestra.

 

[ricardo]

Here's a clip of a pair of the hypers over drums in the pit orch for a rehearsal of "Follies"; iso of just the Oktavas with none of the other mics mixed. Raw clip; no EQ or processing.

And a bit as mains on orchestra rehearsal, without the omni pair they were finally mixed with, and w/o the reverb that was added. Again with no EQ or processing.

Thanks for this k brown.

emmathon, if you compare this with the Schoeps Vivaldi excerpt you sent me, you'll note that they have stuff beyond the speakers. Some of this is cos he is using hypercardioids.
You NEVER get this with XY cardioids and only 'some' with ORTF. In a good room, you can clearly hear the soundstage end at the speakers

Your Schoeps ORTF excerpt, though it has nice localisation, it's all 'central'.

One of the beauties of Blumlein with Fig 8s in a good room is the soundstage (especially the ambience) extends beyond the speakers so the speakers disappear.

You might hear some of this 'better' with headphones but I won't pontificate on the difference between stereo on speakers and headphones.

Both sets of recordings, brown's and yours, lack some focus in the centre cos this is well off-axis. Hence the tendency to mix in some 'central' mikes ... and one of the advantages of MS as a two mike arrangement.

 

[Emmathom]

Hi Ricardo

emmathon, if you compare this with the Schoeps Vivaldi excerpt you sent me, you'll note that they have stuff beyond the speakers. Some of this is cos he is using hypercardioids.
You NEVER get this with XY cardioids and only 'some' with ORTF. In a good room, you can clearly hear the soundstage end at the speakers

So what is k brown setup in the second excerpt ? Hypers but which configuration ? ORTF ?

Your Schoeps ORTF excerpt, though it has nice localisation, it's all 'central'.

Well they were set as a regular ORTF 110° angle and ~17cm spacing...

One of the beauties of Blumlein with Fig 8s in a good room is the soundstage (especially the ambience) extends beyond the speakers so the speakers disappear.

So do you advice to use Blumlein when the room is adequat ? my SC1100 LDC in fig8 would be ok ?

You might hear some of this 'better' with headphones but I won't pontificate on the difference between stereo on speakers and headphones.

I've listened with headphones and the stereo is wide (a bit too much ?) and nice

Both sets of recordings, brown's and yours, lack some focus in the centre cos this is well off-axis. Hence the tendency to mix in some 'central' mikes ... and one of the advantages of MS as a two mike arrangement.

Again, do you prefer Blumlein or MS ? I'm a bit lost...

I have a gospel choir (40-60 singers) to record in a medium size church mid January. No musicians, voices only and I'm thinking which setup to use..." Omni SDC pair ? MS (LDC static mics) ? ORTF SDC cardio's ?

 

[k brown]

My purpose in posting the clips was to demonstrate why I was puzzled by @emrr description of the sound of the Oktava hypers he tried being almost the opposite of the ones I got; it wasn't to demonstrate any particular stereo config.

But, for reference, in the first "Follies" clip they were aimed straight ahead (parallel) at 13", a config I came up with by ear long ago for use in instances where I want to pick up a minimum of the room. In this case I used it to favor the drums in the balance, as when they are part of a full orchestra (as they often are in musical theater), they can get buried by the orchestra.

In the second orchestral clip they were about 10" apart at 90 degrees. They were the middle pair of a Faulkner dual-pair 'phased array', which is a pair of directional mics (any pattern can be used) on the same bar as a 26" spaced pair of omnis; both pairs angled 90 degrees. The spacing of the directional pair is selected to produce a stereo image that has the same width as the omni pair. They are mixed so that one of the pairs leads by 3-9dB, depending on the situation. The mix has properties that any single pair can't achieve. Omnis spaced 26" is something Faulkner began using many years ago (most often with M 50s) as an excellent compromise between a fairly accurate stereo image, and a nice sense of bloom and envelopment, especially for orchestra.