Kavana(ugh)

[DaveP]

But I didn't do that. Take notice how the "Conservatives" in the US have now embraced tribalism, anti-intellectualism, authoritarianism and a few other negative traits. Objectively it is correct to state that they have moved closer to Fascism.

I didn't say that you did, I have just noticed a trend, that's all.

The various "negative traits" you mention did not come about of their own accord, they were a reaction of a section of the population that have been pushed too far in a direction that they don't want to go.  In your own country, the far right was a tiny minority for decades, until Merkel opened the floodgates.  When politicians stop listening to the electorate, they start voting for anyone who does.

It has been a liberal tactic for the last 30 years, that if part of the population is opposed to a measure they are branded.

If you don't want your culture swamped by excessive immigration, you are branded a racist.

If you don't agree with left wing policy you are branded a fascist.

I am surprised that the left has not attacked the Amish, they are deeply rooted in conservative values and are "backward" by definition.

DaveP

 

[living sounds]

I didn't say that you did, I have just noticed a trend, that's all.

The various "negative traits" you mention did not come about of their own accord, they were a reaction of a section of the population that have been pushed too far in a direction that they don't want to go.  In your own country, the far right was a tiny minority for decades, until Merkel opened the floodgates.  When politicians stop listening to the electorate, they start voting for anyone who does.

It has been a liberal tactic for the last 30 years, that if part of the population is opposed to a measure they are branded.

If you don't want your culture swamped by excessive immigration, you are branded a racist.

If you don't agree with left wing policy you are branded a fascist.

I am surprised that the left has not attacked the Amish, they are deeply rooted in conservative values and are "backward" by definition.

DaveP

The Amish are not trying to impose their values on others. They are also not obvious hypocrites. And they are by and large powerless and thus irrelevant.

From a liberal perspective it is actually the right that tries to impose their values on the rest of the population: Neoliberal (= conservative) economist policy makers have put everyone else in the treadmill to achieve their productivity goals (and let its gains largely go to a small minority). Conservatives want to make the rules what people can do in their bedrooms, who other people can marry, what a woman is allowed to do with her own body etc.

I myself do not agree with anti-reason, anti-liberal, authoritarian ideas that come from a subset of the left. Communism doesn't work, there are biological gender differences, language does not determine culture etc. (Postmodernism is bullsh*t).

But Merkel did not open any floodgates. That's far-right propaganda. The borders to Austria were open, and it was a humanitarian act to help people fleeing from civil war. It even makes sense from an economic perspective to take in young people eager to work.

The ultra-right in Germany is strong primarily in Eastern Germany, where people rarely meet strangers. There are other historical reasons:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/28/is-germanys-election-result-the-revenge-of-the-east

The current global right wing resurgance has to do with the trifecta of economic inequality, cultural changes and immigration. All of these elements need to be in place for a significant segment of the population to turn to right wing authoritarianism.

I've long been saying that the left should focus on economic inequality. Fix the problem of most of the profits going to the top, and everything else is solveable. Bernie was on the right track. So is Elizabeth Warren.

 

[Banzai]

In your own country, the far right was a tiny minority for decades, until Merkel opened the floodgates.  When politicians stop listening to the electorate, they start voting for anyone who does.

The far right is still a tiny minority in Germany...

The left also doesn't consider the majority of the right to be racist – they consider them to be xenophobes.

Definition of xenophobe

: one unduly fearful of what is foreign and especially of people of foreign origin

Xenophobe Has Greek Roots

Xenophobe is partly based on the Greek noun xenos, meaning "stranger, guest, foreigner". Unlike other phobias, xenophobia isn't really considered an abnormal condition; instead, it's generally thought of as just serious narrow-mindedness, the kind of thinking that goes along with racism and extreme patriotism. In times of war, a government will often actually try to turn all its citizens into xenophobes.

 

[DaveP]

I appreciate the thought put into your reply, although I only agree with part of it.

My generation concentrates much more on its responsibilities than its rights.  For example, women have of course the right to do what they want with their own bodies.  It's when they start to determine the life or death of an unborn child that I have problems.

If they are date raped or a victim of incest, I have every sympathy, but if they are feckless about contraception I have very little time for their rights.  There are plenty of childless couples to absorb their mistakes.

DaveP

 

[living sounds]

I appreciate the thought put into your reply, although I only agree with part of it.

My generation concentrates much more on its responsibilities than its rights.  For example, women have of course the right to do what they want with their own bodies.  It's when they start to determine the life or death of an unborn child that I have problems.

If they are date raped or a victim of incest, I have every sympathy, but if they are feckless about contraception I have very little time for their rights.  There are plenty of childless couples to absorb their mistakes.

DaveP

I can understand that sentiment. I still think it's up to the woman to make that hard decision, and an embryo is not a person. I wish conservatives would worry for those actually suffering on this earth as much as they care for the embryo.

As for the rights vs. responsibilities I would argue the older generation is very much considering themselves entitled. The way Kavanaugh raged before the senate is a good example. It's harder to understand ones own entitlement though.

 

[Matador]

For example, women have of course the right to do what they want with their own bodies.  It's when they start to determine the life or death of an unborn child that I have problems.

This reads to me like "women have of course the right to do what they want with their own bodies.  It's when they start to determine what do with their own bodies that I have problems."  But that is an argument for another thread.

 

[JohnRoberts]

But I didn't do that. Take notice how the "Conservatives" in the US have now embraced tribalism, anti-intellectualism, authoritarianism and a few other negative traits. Objectively it is correct to state that they have moved closer to Fascism.

not IMO, but you make your opinion clear.

far left and far right extremes are both unrealistic, and out of touch with the mainstream that is more sensible.

JR

 

[JohnRoberts]

I seem to remember Adolf Hitler saying much the same thing about Jews and Slavic peoples, so we don't want to go down that road do we?

DaveP

come on  are you trying to end the argument by mentioning Hitler?  Politics is more like a family squabble, not genocide.

JR

 

[JohnRoberts]

Yes, that is true, but I think my larger point stands...the nation did not start out with a representative ratio between cities and urban areas exceeding factors of 200:1 or larger.  The entire population of the country could be contained within present-day San Francisco.

The aim was to prevent 'tyranny of the majority', but now we've crossed into a 'tyranny of the minority'.

No, the aim of our government's design was to prevent a concentration of power in the federal, preferring that decisions be made locally by the people those decisions directly affect.

I am repeating myself but I dislike the popular election of senators (17th amendment). Prior to that the senators were appointed by state legislatures clearly giving the states more say over the federal law making. The house of representatives is the more proportional (democratic) lower body of the federal legislature, the senate was designed as the upper, more thoughtful check against popular (mob) motivations originating in the house. The two senators per state was clearly a bias toward state power and away from federal power.  State appointed federal senators gave states an extra degree of restraint against federal legislative excesses.

In theory the popular election of senators should not change their state oriented mandate, but some are too comfortable in DC, and can sometime appear less answerable to their state's voters, something the state legislature assignment and recall capability could reign in. 

JR

 

[dmp]

The republican loss of popular support will lead to problems undoubtedly.  The USA system protects minority rights, but allowing a minority to usurp power and impose their minority view on the rest will not last. Even with blatant partisans on SCOTUS, like Kavanaugh, Gorsuch, Thomas, and Alito.
A popular loss in the Presidency (3 million) and in Senate support (30 million votes!), coinciding with gerrymandering and voter suppression (voter IDs laws + closing DMV in targeted neighborhoods, etc) will be like trying to hold back a buckling dam.
I expect things are going to continue to get worse and significantly worse for awhile though.

The defining moment in my opinion of the whole Kavanaugh thing was when Kavanaugh, Graham, and then Trump switched to angry partisan yelling, claiming it was a 'Hoax' by 'evil' people. They keep raising the stakes.  Reminds me of the swift vote veterans for truth attack against John Kerry. The worst of politics out in the open. Lies and craven attacks on the best principles of the country. And the Republicans think it is a winning strategy.

Yes, maybe an unfalsifiable accusation that was not conclusively proven would not have changed the confirmation (although her testimony was credible and sincere) - but the partisanship from Kavanaugh was appalling and disqualifying.
Anybody who identifies as Republican and is capable of critical thinking should have left the party by now.

 

[DaveP]

come on  are you trying to end the argument by mentioning Hitler?  Politics is more like a family squabble, not genocide.

Sorry that was not my intention.
I was drawing the parallel because he started by demonizing types of people and this is what is happening now with social media and various #, as I explained here........

It has been a liberal tactic for the last 30 years, that if part of the population is opposed to a measure they are branded.

If you don't want your culture swamped by excessive immigration, you are branded a racist.

If you don't agree with left wing policy you are branded a fascist.

DaveP

 

[DaveP]

but the partisanship from Kavanaugh was appalling and disqualifying

.
It probably is, but that is what your crazy supreme court system is all about.  Wouldn't it be better to have a completely non-partisan judiciary like other countries?

DaveP

 

[JohnRoberts]

The republican loss of popular support will lead to problems undoubtedly.  The USA system protects minority rights, but allowing a minority to usurp power and impose their minority view on the rest will not last. Even with blatant partisans on SCOTUS, like Kavanaugh, Gorsuch, Thomas, and Alito.
A popular loss in the Presidency (3 million) and in Senate support (30 million votes!), coinciding with gerrymandering and voter suppression (voter IDs laws + closing DMV in targeted neighborhoods, etc) will be like trying to hold back a buckling dam.
I expect things are going to continue to get worse and significantly worse for awhile though.

The defining moment in my opinion of the whole Kavanaugh thing was when Kavanaugh, Graham, and then Trump switched to angry partisan yelling, claiming it was a 'Hoax' by 'evil' people. They keep raising the stakes.  Reminds me of the swift vote veterans for truth attack against John Kerry. The worst of politics out in the open. Lies and craven attacks on the best principles of the country. And the Republicans think it is a winning strategy.

Perhaps you mean "swift boat".

Since I was drafted in 1970 I remember Viet Nam and Lt. Kerry's behavior after he got out.  I was anti-war and sympathetic to VVAW but not Kerry's overtly political pandering. (I lived in Boston too, so couldn't avoid him, or the Kennedy dynasty politics. )

I am glad he was passed over for a military command/oversight position in President Obama's administration that was floated. Perhaps mine was not the only objection. (understatement, I'm sure the sitting military command would be extremely unhappy with him nominally in a leadership role.)  8)

Yes, maybe an unfalsifiable accusation that was not conclusively proven would not have changed the confirmation (although her testimony was credible and sincere) - but the partisanship from Kavanaugh was appalling and disqualifying.
Anybody who identifies as Republican and is capable of critical thinking should have left the party by now.

I will try not to take that personally because it seems to be modern culture to vilify people you don't agree with. At least you didn't go straight to calling us all evil right away, like some do. Apparently just lacking mental clarity, is a kinder and gentler pejorative.  :

You may not appreciate this but you are behaving more like a conservative who generally thinks liberal/progressives are ignorant (uninformed), while the liberal/progressives think conservatives are mean spirited and evil.  But I won't try to tell you what or how "you" think, I know how angry that makes me.  8)

JR

 

[john12ax7]

Lies and craven attacks on the best principles of the country. And the Republicans think it is a winning strategy.

But it IS a winning strategy. Both sides use it, because emotion is more effective at swaying people than logic and reason.

Anybody who identifies as Republican and is capable of critical thinking should have left the party by now.

The same can be said of Democrats. Both parties are more alike than different. They play lip service to their supposed values while their actions are far far different.  For both sides it's all about toeing the party line and serving the special interests with deep pockets. There are some principled folks on both sides, but they are far too few.

 

[dmp]

PI will try not to take that personally because it seems to be modern culture to vilify people you don't agree with. At least you didn't go straight to calling us all evil right away, like some do. Apparently just lacking mental clarity, is a kinder and gentler pejorative.  :

You may not appreciate this but you are behaving more like a conservative who generally thinks liberal/progressives are ignorant (uninformed), while the liberal/progressives think conservatives are mean spirited and evil.  But I won't try to tell you what or how "you" think, I know how angry that makes me.

JR

Trump has publicly called his critics evil. He's called for his political opponents to be locked up.  You might see some left wing activist calling Republicans evil, but Donald Trump is the President of the USA and he is doing worse than any politician in modern times.

Interesting to note the high standards for civility people have in local communities like this compared to our national theater (i.e. our forum rules would have Trump banned in a day).
But team politics has taken over most people's good judgment.  Again - supporting Trump is destructive to the country - no doubt about it.  Rewarding the strongman politics & lies of the Republican party is sending the country on a bad path.

But it IS a winning strategy. Both sides use it, because emotion is more effective at swaying people than logic and reason.

True, at least in the short term.  And this is why a former critic of Trump like Lindsay Graham has turned into a caricature of him - yelling about evil Democrats. The desire for power surpasses good character for craven opportunists.

The same can be said of Democrats. Both parties are more alike than different. They play lip service to their supposed values while their actions are far far different.  For both sides it's all about toeing the party line and serving the special interests with deep pockets. There are some principled folks on both sides, but they are far too few.

True to an extent. It got significantly worse with the open floodgates of money into politics (citizens united).  The Democrats became much more politically neoliberal basically because the voters (baby boomers & greatests) demanded it. But most of the evidence for your position critical of Dems is based on compromises with Republicans, i.e. Republicans have been pulling government to the right for decades. 

The decline of compromise and discourse has been led by Republicans.  If you compare the Democrats in the minority under GWB compared to Republicans under Obama, there was a significant escalation by Republicans (100% filibuster of judges starting in 2013, for example - yelling "you lie" to Obama during the SOTU).  Democrats in the majority under Obama vs Republicans with Trump? Again there's been significant escalation by Republicans. Plenty of examples but imagine Obama angrily calling Republicans evil for the Benghazi hoax.

That being said, I wouldn't be surprised if the old guard, 'take the high road' Democrats get surpassed by a strongman candidate in the next 4-6 yrs who takes on Trump and escalates things further.

 

[fazer]

under GWB compared to Republicans under Obama, there was a significant escalation by Republicans (100% filibuster of judges starting in 2013, for example - yelling "you lie" to Obama during the SOTU

Thats my feeling for the way it is.  "What goes around comes around"  Republicans were obstructionist  under Obama. Democrats are obstructionist (my view) for Trump with a Turbocharger added.  One ups men.  But when you disagree with  things, its  gonna get ugly.

Also I like Linsey Gram's anger non-management .  He could be president with that kind of Gumption.  All the others had to look down at the note cards and read what to say next.  Linsey shot from the hip.

You say Potato I say Potato.     

 

[JohnRoberts]

I almost posted a compliment to this group for civility and thoughtfulness but there is still a lot of anger out there.

I'm going to grab a beer, I recommend something similar for you guys, it's almost 4:20PM here.  :

JR

[edit- I have a real problem... I noticed fire ants in my compost heap... fire ant poison is also toxic to earthworms who help convert the compost to soil... The fru fru web advice is to throw coffee grounds on the compost heap, but coffee grounds already make up a major fraction of my compost....  Another laughable piece of web advice, is to dig up a different ant colony and throw them together to kill each other... Apparently somebody who doesn't know fire ants.    sorry back to your ongoing screech.... [/edit]

 

[fazer]

Only 3:13 here.  But like they say, "its always 4 somewhere".  I'm getting a beer.

 

[living sounds]

I was drawing the parallel because he started by demonizing types of people and this is what is happening now with social media and various #, as I explained here........

Since you were refering to me  -"demonize" - where?

 

[Matador]

Also I like Linsey Gram's anger non-management .  He could be president with that kind of Gumption.  All the others had to look down at the note cards and read what to say next.  Linsey shot from the hip.

Ahh yes, Lindsey Graham, a titan of intellect and good-faith arguments:

While Graham was pitching his fit about how the Dems were only trying to hold the seat open until the elections were over, I'm shocked the sheer irony of it didn't cause lightning to strike Merrick Garland on the spot.