LUFS and Bob Katz K Scale values

[opacheco]

Hi,

Do exist a relationship between the R128 and its 1770 method and Bob Katz K scale in mixing and mastering??....Are the same the both Loudness Range measurements equivalents?

Do exist a scale of loudness LUFS recommended that I can compare with like reference when I do some mixing or mastering loudness measurements?? e. i., -9LUFS for some specific music.

Opacheco.

 

[JohnRoberts]

I'm not sure exactly what you are asking for but a lot has been written on the subject (maybe not here). I suspect there may be subtle differences between different scales.

IIRC bobcat (Bob Katz) uses different targets for mastering to better work with different mediums he mixes in.

JR

 

[opacheco]

I'm not sure exactly what you are asking for but a lot has been written on the subject (maybe not here). I suspect there may be subtle differences between different scales.

IIRC bobcat (Bob Katz) uses different targets for mastering to better work with different mediums he mixes in.

JR

JR thanks for your response and I so sorry for my bad English but my question is focused in order to find LUFS values appropriated or LUFS advises values, similar to Bob Katz K-12, K-14, K-20 scales in order to see the difference in dynamic range and improve the sound without dynamic damage if this is possible!...

Every note I found about the LUFS is for the normative guidelines by  ITU-R BS.1770 and EBU but nothing at all of the PREFERRED or SUGGESTED VALUES for mixing or mastering and its relationship with the dynamics of the program. I would like to get something like e.i., -5LUFS for Xdb of Dynamic Range and appropriated for Rock Music......that is an idea only!

Opacheco.

 

[ruairioflaherty]

Mastering engineer here…

IMO Bob Katz makes almost everything needlessly complicated.  If you want to make more dynamic masters use less limiting.  It's that simple.

There is no guideline, meter or standard that will guarantee that your master is "acceptable".  If you like dynamic music and don't care about competing with modern commercial releases then you can master to any level you like. 

There is much hoopla about Spotify level normalization "ending the loudness wars" but as long as it is optional and some users do not have it enabled then things will not change. 

Working at a defined level in your room can help turn out more consistent results.  The real test is always comparing to commercial releases, as your clients will.

 

[Gold]

I believe that LUFS is an absolute scale based on level in dBfs. 0 LUFS = 0 dBfs. I don't think it directly measures an analog level. The K system is a relative scale based on how much headroom you want or where your "0" is. Notice there is no reference level in the K system. I don't think there is a direct relationship because the K system is a sliding scale compared to the absolute scale of LUFS..

 

[JohnRoberts]

I believe that LUFS is an absolute scale based on level in dBfs. 0 LUFS = 0 dBfs. I don't think it directly measures an analog level. The K system is a relative scale based on how much headroom you want or where your "0" is. Notice there is no reference level in the K system. I don't think there is a direct relationship because the K system is a sliding scale compared to the absolute scale of LUFS..

I am not expert but I kind of agree, Bob is looking at "crest factor" or peak to average ratio for different genres... Film can need (use) more dynamic range than compressed MP3s...  Relative ratios, not absolute levels.  But I vaguely recall some discussion about SPL in the control room for monitoring.

JR

PS: Bob may have posted here in the past, I think he lives in FL now. When I knew him he was living in NYC.

 

[abbey road d enfer]

Hi,

Do exist a relationship between the R128 and its 1770 method and Bob Katz K scale in mixing and mastering??....Are the same the both Loudness Range measurements equivalents?

Do exist a scale of loudness LUFS recommended that I can compare with like reference when I do some mixing or mastering loudness measurements?? e. i., -9LUFS for some specific music.

Opacheco.

I believe you should find your answer there
https://tech.ebu.ch/docs/r/r128.pdf
Actually, the scales are the same.
LUFS is a measurement unit, just like dBu or dBfs.
The K-system uses the same measurement, and recommends 3 different headroom according to the style of programme, when teh EBU specifies only 2. The reference level, 0LU is fixed at -23LUFS.
It's like saying the average level is 0VU and the peaks should not exceed +3VU; that's what it was for years with tape recording. It is media dependant.
The only novelty in these systems is that the monitoring system is calibrated for 0LU->85dBspl.

 

[moamps]

I would like to get something like e.i., -5LUFS for Xdb of Dynamic Range and appropriated for Rock Music......that is an idea only!

If a music will be published only on CD, you can do what you like, IMO. But, if it will be distributed thru streaming or downloading services, you should find what's theirs reference level and mix for that in order to get optimal result. It is usually -16 or -14LUFS, IIRC.

 

[fazer]

In tv the -24 LKFS standard is an integrated value over the entire length of the program not just an average level.  This allowed peak levels to go much higher as long as the integrated average of the entire program averages -24.  It's different then a k scale which only looks at the instant in time the meter is measuring.  I worked at Starz for a year and had strict -24 standards.  We had to play the entire program with the Dolby meter to certify the standard was accomplished.  You could have a program with low level music playing with a dramatically loud ending meet spec because the 30 second trailer averaged -24 over the entire program.  So it's different for a different purpose.
  I recommend Nugen Mastercheck for defining program level for Apple Music U tube, Spotify and other problem program targets.

 

[abbey road d enfer]

In tv the -24 LKFS standard is an integrated value over the entire length of the program not just an average level.  This allowed peak levels to go much higher as long as the integrated average of the entire program averages -24.  It's different then a k scale which only looks at the instant in time the meter is measuring.  I worked at Starz for a year and had strict -24 standards.  We had to play the entire program with the Dolby meter to certify the standard was accomplished.  You could have a program with low level music playing with a dramatically loud ending meet spec because the 30 second trailer averaged -24 over the entire program.  So it's different for a different purpose.
  I recommend Nugen Mastercheck for defining program level for Apple Music U tube, Spotify and other problem program targets.

EBU would exclude trailer from measurement, since it's an independant program of less than 2 minutes.

 

[fazer]

EBU would exclude trailer from measurement, since it's an independant program of less than 2 minutes.

Abby what exactly does that mean?  There is no measurement for a programs under 2mins?
Commercials are under 2 mins and the standard was to  keep commercial levels more consistant to programs among other things. 

 

[abbey road d enfer]

Abby what exactly does that mean?  There is no measurement for a programs under 2mins?
Commercials are under 2 mins and the standard was to  keep commercial levels more consistant to programs among other things.

On a long programme, the Loudness RAnge is generally 20LU, that means there are soft passages and loud passages, and there could be peaks at -5LU. On a short programme, the LRA measurement is not valid, due to the averaging method. Instead the MLK (Momentary Level- 400ms) is limited to -15LUFS and the SLK (Short - 3s) to -20.
In all cases the Program Loudness is fixed at -23LUFS.
All in all there is about 10dB less DR on short programs than on films. Commercials can be louder than films but less intrusive; at least that's the idea.

 

[opacheco]

…There is no guideline, meter or standard that will guarantee that your master is "acceptable".  If you like dynamic music and don't care about competing with modern commercial releases then you can master to any level you like. 

There is much hoopla about Spotify level normalization "ending the loudness wars" but as long as it is optional and some users do not have it enabled then things will not change.

ruairioflaherty,

Interesting!!

Opacheco

 

[opacheco]

I believe that LUFS is an absolute scale based on level in dBfs. 0 LUFS = 0 dBfs. I don't think it directly measures an analog level. The K system is a relative scale based on how much headroom you want or where your "0" is. Notice there is no reference level in the K system. I don't think there is a direct relationship because the K system is a sliding scale compared to the absolute scale of LUFS..

Gold,

But how about the Loudness Range recommended by R128?, it's a type of Dynamic of the program like the Bob K system then?

Opacheco.

 

[opacheco]

any more comment?

Opacheco.

 

[metalb00b00]

On a long programme, the Loudness RAnge is generally 20LU, that means there are soft passages and loud passages, and there could be peaks at -5LU. On a short programme, the LRA measurement is not valid, due to the averaging method. Instead the MLK (Momentary Level- 400ms) is limited to -15LUFS and the SLK (Short - 3s) to -20.
In all cases the Program Loudness is fixed at -23LUFS.
All in all there is about 10dB less DR on short programs than on films. Commercials can be louder than films but less intrusive; at least that's the idea.

Exactly as you say Abbey.
Commercials must be louder than the actual program, because they're the source of income.

 

[Gold]

I don't know what the Loudness Range of R128 is, so I don't have any commment.

 

[abbey road d enfer]

I don't know what the Loudness Range of R128 is, so I don't have any commment.

"the  EBU  recommends  that  the  measures ‘Loudness Range’ and ‘Maximum True Peak Level’ be used for the normalisation of audio signals and to comply with the technical limits of the complete signal chain as well as the aesthetic
needs of each programme/station depending on the genre(s) and the target audience"
R128 recommends not exceeding 20dB LRA for programs with high DR (films, classical).

 

[opacheco]

"the  EBU  recommends  that  the  measures ‘Loudness Range’ and ‘Maximum True Peak Level’ be used for the normalisation of audio signals and to comply with the technical limits of the complete signal chain as well as the aesthetic
needs of each programme/station depending on the genre(s) and the target audience"
R128 recommends not exceeding 20dB LRA for programs with high DR (films, classical).

abbey road d enfer, very interesting notes!!....But how about another genres of music like Jazz, Rock or Speech??....I suppose this numbers need to be lower, Am I right??

Thanks
Opacheco

 

[abbey road d enfer]

abbey road d enfer, very interesting notes!!....But how about another genres of music like Jazz, Rock or Speech??....I suppose this numbers need to be lower, Am I right??

Yes, that's up to the broadcaster/diffusor. The EBU just makes recommendations in that respect.