Rybow
Well-known member
Skylar said:
That's great Skylar! I am still very interested in these.
Marconi knob Яeverse Engineering
- Thread starter Skylar
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Help Support GroupDIY Audio Forum:
That's great Skylar! I am still very interested in these.
ArnauTS
Well-known member
Good news ;D
Siegfried Meier
Well-known member
Rad!! Hope something works out.
deuce42
Well-known member
This would be awesome if it can be made!
Skylar
Well-known member
I sent my RFQ out on Aug 9 or 10, and still don't have a quote yet.
This time I actually got a reply from someone at Davies, so that's better than last time at least!
Yesterday I actually sent them a ping mail, and it looks like my contact is out-of-the-office until Wed.
I'll report here when new info becomes available...hopefully this week.
This time I actually got a reply from someone at Davies, so that's better than last time at least!
Yesterday I actually sent them a ping mail, and it looks like my contact is out-of-the-office until Wed.
I'll report here when new info becomes available...hopefully this week.
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jrowell
Well-known member
Fantastic work Skylar. Someone had to do it.
The Bar Knob (as Geoff Tanner calls them) with the underskirt came in red, grey, and the dark blue, and was used for non concentric rotary switching functions for modules and console frames. (Mic Gain for DIY)
There was also a round knob with underskirt, in mostly grey or blue, that was used for continuously variable rotary adjustments, such as rev return panels, continuously variable 1272's (rev, cue sends) (Output Level for DIY)
These are the two main styles that I imagine would cover most needs, along with the concentric 1073/1081 stuff.
There was a variety of others used from that series in different module, and console applications.
Never seen any info on the originals.
I suggest it would be very desirable to have the brass inserts available for 6mm and 1/4" (6.35mm) shafts.
If someone picks up the whole line the small grey (module aux sends) ones were 3mm or 1/8" I think you could get the small ones in 6mm or 1/4" as well, but that is stretching memory. I don't have any here.
Do all four shaft sizes for the inserts. Then anyone can use any switch or pot.
The originals had a pretty close tolerance on the hole. There wasn't much play on the shaft, and some are very difficult to get off 35 year old modules, mostly due to over tightening bunging up the shaft.
That is why the knobs don't go off center, and tilt when you tighten them, like on a lot of commercial gear.
Again, great job.
I imagine at a reasonable price there would be quite a few people reknobbing consoles.
James
The Bar Knob (as Geoff Tanner calls them) with the underskirt came in red, grey, and the dark blue, and was used for non concentric rotary switching functions for modules and console frames. (Mic Gain for DIY)
There was also a round knob with underskirt, in mostly grey or blue, that was used for continuously variable rotary adjustments, such as rev return panels, continuously variable 1272's (rev, cue sends) (Output Level for DIY)
These are the two main styles that I imagine would cover most needs, along with the concentric 1073/1081 stuff.
There was a variety of others used from that series in different module, and console applications.
Never seen any info on the originals.
I suggest it would be very desirable to have the brass inserts available for 6mm and 1/4" (6.35mm) shafts.
If someone picks up the whole line the small grey (module aux sends) ones were 3mm or 1/8" I think you could get the small ones in 6mm or 1/4" as well, but that is stretching memory. I don't have any here.
Do all four shaft sizes for the inserts. Then anyone can use any switch or pot.
The originals had a pretty close tolerance on the hole. There wasn't much play on the shaft, and some are very difficult to get off 35 year old modules, mostly due to over tightening bunging up the shaft.
That is why the knobs don't go off center, and tilt when you tighten them, like on a lot of commercial gear.
Again, great job.
I imagine at a reasonable price there would be quite a few people reknobbing consoles.
James
Skylar, have I mentioned how much you rock lately??? I vote for the traditional Neve colors. I'm in for a bunch of these if it goes down and I like the colors. That said, I'll be purchasing the following amount of these if they are lime green or pink: a big fat ZERO.
And for those who say it doesn't matter what the knobs look like it's only the sound- that's quite an admirable purist philosophy. Since looks are so unimportant, I'm sure you'll have no problems taking the knobs off of your Neve's and selling them to me. You won't miss them. :
And for those who say it doesn't matter what the knobs look like it's only the sound- that's quite an admirable purist philosophy. Since looks are so unimportant, I'm sure you'll have no problems taking the knobs off of your Neve's and selling them to me. You won't miss them. :
Skylar
Well-known member
Tillmann said:Skylar, have I mentioned how much you rock lately??? I vote for the traditional Neve colors. I'm in for a bunch of these if it goes down and I like the colors. That said, I'll be purchasing the following amount of these if they are lime green or pink: a big fat ZERO.
And for those who say it doesn't matter what the knobs look like it's only the sound- that's quite an admirable purist philosophy. Since looks are so unimportant, I'm sure you'll have no problems taking the knobs off of your Neve's and selling them to me. You won't miss them. :
I agree that standard colors would be the best way to go.
I've recently sent for quotes from the major US players in the knob business, and I'm waiting to hear back from several of them.
I got a call today from a very nice guy who works for Rogan, and his ballpark quote for the tooling was $10,000–12,000.
I told him that tooling needs to be closer to $5000 or less, so he's working with the engineers to come up with a more workable solution.
Still waiting for quotes from OEP, Cosmo, and Davies.
I'm planning to open up for RFQs through MFG.com also, which will bring in a flood of interest from Asia no doubt.
So, there is some work being done behind the scenes on this endeavor.
jrowell
Well-known member
I understand we want these knobs to be reasonable, but why does the tooling have to be below $5000? I was expecting $40,000.
If he is quoting $10-20 thou, then the difference has to come from somewhere. Probably in the design and tolerance areas. Or dropping a set screw, as I have seen on recent RCA style 'repros'
These knobs are complex to make. The brass insert drives costs up, as do the separately molded clear skirts.
The originals were made to very high tolerances, which makes them much faster to work with when installing. And much more visually pleasing. (No slightly tilted knobs, as on most new gear)
I would respectfully suggest that if this is going to be done, it be done as exact reproductions.
There is no sense in creating what might be perceived as a cheap DIY substitute. Then a market will remain for real Marconi's.
The best way to avoid that is not to press companies right toward build to price. Let them copy thing thing exactly, and see what the per piece ends up at.
If they are exact repros, the interest will be so high, that the per piece might end up being really good. The tooling is a one time cost.
I would think that if it ends up at $15.00 or $20.00 a knob, that is pretty good. Any less than that, and I just don't see where the quality comes from.
High quality costs money, that level can't be continuously driven down to match a regular consumer level of price expectancy. At some stage the point will get lost.
Whoever puts that initial tooling up stands to make out pretty well, if the product is right.
If they aren't exact no one except DIY'ers will buy them, and no one will be reknobbing consoles.
It took the vintage repro parts old car market a bit to catch onto this one too. Lots of companies that did half way repros that arn't around anymore.
These are classic consoles, and classic gear. It should be on the same level as vintage Corvette restoration.
I'd get more mileage out of an 8048 than a '63 split window Sting Ray. They cost about the same now too.
I need a bunch (a few red, mostly gray and a few blue) for a couple of 2087 stereo mastering EQ's and some other stuff. So I have a really strong interest in this, but to go on my prized 2087's they have to be perfectly correct. 100 pt, to ref car show guys again.
Thanks for listening to my irrational grumbling guys. I am looking for exact exact repros out of this. That is my ulterior motive here.
James
If he is quoting $10-20 thou, then the difference has to come from somewhere. Probably in the design and tolerance areas. Or dropping a set screw, as I have seen on recent RCA style 'repros'
These knobs are complex to make. The brass insert drives costs up, as do the separately molded clear skirts.
The originals were made to very high tolerances, which makes them much faster to work with when installing. And much more visually pleasing. (No slightly tilted knobs, as on most new gear)
I would respectfully suggest that if this is going to be done, it be done as exact reproductions.
There is no sense in creating what might be perceived as a cheap DIY substitute. Then a market will remain for real Marconi's.
The best way to avoid that is not to press companies right toward build to price. Let them copy thing thing exactly, and see what the per piece ends up at.
If they are exact repros, the interest will be so high, that the per piece might end up being really good. The tooling is a one time cost.
I would think that if it ends up at $15.00 or $20.00 a knob, that is pretty good. Any less than that, and I just don't see where the quality comes from.
High quality costs money, that level can't be continuously driven down to match a regular consumer level of price expectancy. At some stage the point will get lost.
Whoever puts that initial tooling up stands to make out pretty well, if the product is right.
If they aren't exact no one except DIY'ers will buy them, and no one will be reknobbing consoles.
It took the vintage repro parts old car market a bit to catch onto this one too. Lots of companies that did half way repros that arn't around anymore.
These are classic consoles, and classic gear. It should be on the same level as vintage Corvette restoration.
I'd get more mileage out of an 8048 than a '63 split window Sting Ray. They cost about the same now too.
I need a bunch (a few red, mostly gray and a few blue) for a couple of 2087 stereo mastering EQ's and some other stuff. So I have a really strong interest in this, but to go on my prized 2087's they have to be perfectly correct. 100 pt, to ref car show guys again.
Thanks for listening to my irrational grumbling guys. I am looking for exact exact repros out of this. That is my ulterior motive here.
James
If they cost $15-20/knob, I'm out. Not interested.
How many moulds are they anyway? I think 10-12k for a single mould is very reasonable, and you will not be able to find it much cheaper in China (unless, like mentioned before, you forego quality). But I think you need several moulds, right? The skirt, the main body, perhaps the smaller top section.
Piece part cost will be lower in China, think say 20-40cents and then mould amortisation on top, but I think you'll need to shift 10.000s of knobs to lower this to a reasonable level.
And then there's the insert of course.
I think the best bet is to talk to a Chinese supplier of knobs and see if they want to add this to their catalogue, that way you don't have to invest in the moulds, and since the potential volumes are higher the mould amortisation will be lower.
But there is Protomould and first cut in the UK, they can make low-cost moulds, but they only make them by milling, so there will not be very small details. Esthetically, the parts they make are so/so (but I only have experience with very small parts, maybe they are better on bigger parts).
Piece part cost will be lower in China, think say 20-40cents and then mould amortisation on top, but I think you'll need to shift 10.000s of knobs to lower this to a reasonable level.
And then there's the insert of course.
I think the best bet is to talk to a Chinese supplier of knobs and see if they want to add this to their catalogue, that way you don't have to invest in the moulds, and since the potential volumes are higher the mould amortisation will be lower.
But there is Protomould and first cut in the UK, they can make low-cost moulds, but they only make them by milling, so there will not be very small details. Esthetically, the parts they make are so/so (but I only have experience with very small parts, maybe they are better on bigger parts).
Skylar
Well-known member
Even high-quality molds for this type of product can be made for under $5000.
The cost of the plastic needed to mold a knob is a fraction of a cent (< $0.01).
Paying $15 for a knob is ridiculous. That's the whole reason this thread exists.
From my standpoint as a buyer of 1000s of custom knobs from a manufacturer, I give them my tolerances, requirements, and expectations.
They give me a quote for this work, and I either accept or reject.
Once they have a sample made up for me to look at, I either accept or reject.
We iterate until things are right.
We already know that these knobs can be made for around $5. I'm just trying to get quotes now from the best-in-the-industry here in the US.
Ultimately, if the quality is crap, we don't use that manufacturer.
The cost of the plastic needed to mold a knob is a fraction of a cent (< $0.01).
Paying $15 for a knob is ridiculous. That's the whole reason this thread exists.
From my standpoint as a buyer of 1000s of custom knobs from a manufacturer, I give them my tolerances, requirements, and expectations.
They give me a quote for this work, and I either accept or reject.
Once they have a sample made up for me to look at, I either accept or reject.
We iterate until things are right.
We already know that these knobs can be made for around $5. I'm just trying to get quotes now from the best-in-the-industry here in the US.
Ultimately, if the quality is crap, we don't use that manufacturer.
Skylar said:
I totally agree!!!
Following this thread with interest. Lowest quote I got for an injection mould from China this year was 3000USD. And that was for a cylindrical seal, a piece of tubing basically. The rest (about 50) was in the 9k-14k range, granted there are some parts with multiple sliders and such and some are dual cavity.
What kind of resin do you want to use? ABS?
What kind of resin do you want to use? ABS?
jrowell
Well-known member
I just simply don't see a point in this unless the knobs are reproduction quality.
Unless the idea is to have inexpensive look a likes and that is the goal.
Reproduction quality would do a lot more for sales, as then you are looking at reknobbing becoming part of a standard desk or module restoration.
Reproduction quality means identical everything. Same materials, same tolerances, same assembly style.
If this is going to be a close or look a like, then extremely detailed photos of the production sample would be nice, so that restorers can determine if they are suitable for use on original modules etc.
$15.00 a knob is not ridiculous. Quality costs money. Ask vintage car restorers. We are in the same sphere with Neve equipment now. Duesenburg level. You don't put look a like parts on those.
The constant erosion of perceived and actual value in the search for the bottom line is a major reason why studio owners can't afford $15.00 a knob anymore.
That was the price 10 years ago.
There is no reason to think that everything else should go up, but that the cost of music production should always go down.
Unless the idea is to have inexpensive look a likes and that is the goal.
Reproduction quality would do a lot more for sales, as then you are looking at reknobbing becoming part of a standard desk or module restoration.
Reproduction quality means identical everything. Same materials, same tolerances, same assembly style.
If this is going to be a close or look a like, then extremely detailed photos of the production sample would be nice, so that restorers can determine if they are suitable for use on original modules etc.
$15.00 a knob is not ridiculous. Quality costs money. Ask vintage car restorers. We are in the same sphere with Neve equipment now. Duesenburg level. You don't put look a like parts on those.
The constant erosion of perceived and actual value in the search for the bottom line is a major reason why studio owners can't afford $15.00 a knob anymore.
That was the price 10 years ago.
There is no reason to think that everything else should go up, but that the cost of music production should always go down.
kazper
Well-known member
Knobs should be of equal quality as originals. If there 1/2 what AMS asks for them then were good, less than that were stellar.
