Marshall Valvestate 8040 Tube Heater Power Resistor Problem

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chilidawg

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Joined
Nov 27, 2013
Messages
177
Hi all, it's been awhile since my last post.

Too busy repairing stuff, from ATX power supplies, generic SMPS, PC mainboards to graphics cards.

This amplifier just got sent to me today for a very simple problem; power push switch with a broken shaft. I fixed it, but then I noticed some burnt tracks when I was desoldering the power switch and wires to get the board free.

The burnt tracks are under a pair of 68 ohm 3W power resistors, which according to the schematic is for the tube heating element. Obviously, these resistors are generating a lot of heat to cause that kind of damage.

Now I'm really a noob with tube stuff, so pardon me for a very stupid question.

Is it ok to replace the resistors with ceramic 5W wirewound resistors?

Will the change affect the sound? (<- this question is actually from the amplifier's owner, lol)

If I don't change them out, what would be the best way to mount a heatsink on them? I've got plenty of heatsinks with different sizes, thickness and profiles that I salvaged from scrap boards.

Honestly, I'm just trying not to spend a dime at all if there's an effective solution, cause they look fine, resistance measured fine, only the copper tracks are not.
 

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Probably better to get a couple of ali housing resistors that you can bolt to the chassis. 5 watts wont fit in there too well.
Out of curiosity I tried them, they fit, just not perfectly centered on the component print.
 
One of the big problems in that scenario is heat transferring to the solder connections, and oxidising them so much that they become very hard to repair. Transferring the heat away entirely is the best long term solution.
 
That looks really cool, CJ.

Just had the opportunity to test the amplifier yesterday. Clean channel works, boost channel - no joy!

Not sure what's wrong. I checked every passive components on board prior assembling it back, and they are all ok.

The tube was glowing dimly.

IMG_20240226_154534.jpg

Stupidly I didn't bring my multimeter with me, so I wasn't able to take any voltage measurements.

The board is now back on my bench, minus the tube and the main transformer. Couldn't carry everything with me as I had to take a ride on a crowded subway train.

Anyway, I saw two videos on YT in regards to these 68 ohm resistors. One by TampaTec where he said they are connected in parallel, measured 34 ohm then again 68 ohm after he cut one leg, but in another video by denbydish where he restored the burnt out tracks, I saw they are not connected in parallel, the same as the schematic and the same as the board that I'm working on. Unless there are two different board revisions, which one is correct????

Aside from that, what should I be looking at in order to repair the boost channel? I'm not familiar at all with tube circuit, but I suspect the tube is not glowing bright because it doesn't have the high DC voltage supply (AC from autotransfomer T5899 rectified by D3)?

I have a 230VAC to 2x18VAC main transformer, can I use this temporarily to check if the autotransformer is working or not?

Oh, do I need to start a new thread?
 
That looks really cool, CJ.

Just had the opportunity to test the amplifier yesterday. Clean channel works, boost channel - no joy!

Not sure what's wrong. I checked every passive components on board prior assembling it back, and they are all ok.

The tube was glowing dimly.

View attachment 123220

Stupidly I didn't bring my multimeter with me, so I wasn't able to take any voltage measurements.

The board is now back on my bench, minus the tube and the main transformer. Couldn't carry everything with me as I had to take a ride on a crowded subway train.

Anyway, I saw two videos on YT in regards to these 68 ohm resistors. One by TampaTec where he said they are connected in parallel, measured 34 ohm then again 68 ohm after he cut one leg, but in another video by denbydish where he restored the burnt out tracks, I saw they are not connected in parallel, the same as the schematic and the same as the board that I'm working on. Unless there are two different board revisions, which one is correct????

Aside from that, what should I be looking at in order to repair the boost channel? I'm not familiar at all with tube circuit, but I suspect the tube is not glowing bright because it doesn't have the high DC voltage supply (AC from autotransfomer T5899 rectified by D3)?

I have a 230VAC to 2x18VAC main transformer, can I use this temporarily to check if the autotransformer is working or not?

Oh, do I need to start a new thread?

I'm in a similar position with gear repairs after getting back into electronics and finally getting my little lab set back up. Life certainly gets in the way at times, and my priorities were certainly not in this area, but I'm really enjoying it now and will finally get around to finishing off many of the projects from here.

I've succesfully repaired a lot of amps recently, and although all transistor etc, I've got a couple of valve amps to look at, but I've been putting those off till I was a bit more up to speed so to speak and in the meantime, have been learning more about valves.

Anyway, I'm waffling, so I'll do my best to give you a hand and happy to be corrected by the more experieced members on here.

I've taken a look at the schematic and heres a few things to test.

Given that the amp is basically working, that would tend to indicate the PSU is functioning on the low voltage side(power to opamps) and the rails to the power amp section are ok and hence the transformer secondaries. Check to see if the led for the boost channel lights when you switch channels. If not, try inserting a jack into the channel switch skt and short it out (rule out the front panel switch). If there is still an issue, then check the voltage rails on the opamps for the boost circuit. I pulled up a data sheet for IC1/4 as I wasnt familiar with an M5201 opamp and it also basically showed me how the boost circuit comes into operation. These use a control voltage (pin 1) to basically switch them on/off (hence boost circuit in/out), so check pin 1 when switching channels. This should rule out the channel switching circuitry.

Quick test for the valve would be to swap it with a known good one (sorry for stating the obvious), but if you havent got one to hand then, a bit more testing.
The ECC83 (12ax7) has two heaters that can be wired to work off either 6.3V (in parallel) or 12.6V (in series). Current draw is about 300mA using 6.3V, or 150mA using 12.6V. Looking at the schematic, the heaters are wired in series and the circuit uses the two 68R resistors (R62/63) to drop some voltage. Given that, and using ohms law, the voltage dropped across each resistor will be 10.2V (0.15x68) or thereabouts, which would suggest a voltage of about 33V (10.2 + 10.2 + 12.6) across the secondaries of the transformer. This also shows a power dissapation of approx 1.5W for each resistor, hence doubling up to 3W rating. The transformer is supplying the rest of low voltage rails so that should be ok, but check either side of R62/63. Pull the valve and check the resistor values (looks like youve replaced them so should be ok) and no, these wont affect the sound of the amp. I recently repaired a power amp that had gone into protect, which was caused by dropper resistors for the LV supply off the HV supply going open circuit on the -ve rail, but you'd never know by looking at them.

The HV supply can be checked by taking a DC reading on the LHS of R64 which will rule out the 'step up' secondary and D3. From there you can follow the circuit and check the 2 plate voltages at R53/54. Be careful!!!

If all of the above seem ok, then it could be time to try a new valve, or if you have a scope, then trace the circuit through for a signal on the output of the opamps in the boost circuit which renters the signal chain just before the FX send jack.

As always with amps, good to check all manner of things from bad connections on jack sockets (FX send and return notorious for faults) and dry joints etc. A chopstick and tapping the circuit board will often show these up.

Hope thats of some help.

Here's the schematic for anyone interested and data sheet for the M5201.

PS, re-read your posts and see you've got the step up up TX, for the HV supply out the board. You really should get that back in to test as its not indicated on the schematic what the intended plate voltage is. An 18V TX wired backwards could be ok(probably in range for an ECC83) but obviously a risk to the rest of the circuit. I wouldn't want to be experimenting with that on a customers amp.
 

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The auto transformer for HV supply is soldered on board. Input is 16.5VAC, and it outputs 125VAC.

I don't plan to connect my 230VAC to 2x18VAC backwards. I plan to connect it as it is, 2x18VAC goes straight to the bridge rectifier. I want to see if the auto transformer will output 8x of that 18VAC, and if it doesn't, then the winding inside is broken.
 
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Ok, so I gave it a try with a 2x10VAC power transformer.

I get +-/12V DC for the opamps which is good.

Auto transformer boosts that 10VAC up by almost ten folds because I'm getting 80VAC to 95VAC before D3.
And... **drum rolls** only a puny 10V DC after D3!

Now I'm not sure what is wrong because there is no tube in the socket, and I already measured D3 in diode mode, got the usual silicon rectifier 0.6V voltage drop, but I guess it doesn't really mean that the diode is ok?
 
The auto transformer for HV supply is soldered on board. Input is 30VAC from one AC leg of the bridge rectifier, and it outputs (idk) 170VAC according to a post I read in another forum, and with a half wave single diode rectification (D3, 1N4007) that gives around 240V DC to the tube.

View attachment 123228

I don't plan to connect my 230VAC to 2x18VAC backwards. I plan to connect it as it is, 2x18VAC goes straight to the bridge rectifier. I want to see if the auto transformer will ouput 6x of that 18VAC, and if it doesn't, then the winding inside is broken, which spells trouble because Marshall no longer makes this part, and I have no idea if there is an alternative solution to supply 240V DC to the tube, tho I suppose I can find someone locally in the tube amplifier community to do a custom wind transformer job.
OK, with you now after another re-read :)
 
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Reflowed the solder joints, didn't change out the diode, I get a somewhat better result now.

Anode of the diode, HV AC voltage from the auto transformer.

1000017960.jpg

HV DC supply at one of the tube HT pins. It takes awhile for the cap to charge up to 40V plus, before starting to decrease in a steady pace.

And why is there a need for two HV caps in parallel with different capacitance? a 33uF (brown sleeve) and a 10uF (blue sleeve).
Why not just put one 47uF instead?

1000017961.jpg

I guess I do need the amplifier's main transformer and the tube to do a further testing. Will update this thread when I have them on my bench this weekend.
 
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C44 and C45 are not in parallel, they have a 10k Ohm resistor between them, creating a CRC filter to smooth the half wave rectified AC.
 
Tube HV: not sure what is the correct DC voltage value, because it doesn't work properly on this board. Only when my multimeter positive probe is touching D3 (1N4007) anode for a few minutes while measuring it in AC voltage mode that HV will charge up to a point the tube will turn on and pass the audio signal to the next opamp stage, otherwise it takes a very long time to charge (10 minutes only 1.5V)
If I remove the probe, that charged HV will drop, then the tube will turn off. Diode measured ok but I replaced it anyway, yet no change in behavior. Rest of the components in HV supply checked out ok.

So the repair that I did as per request by the owner was to bypass the tube.
I inserted a solid core jumper wire in the tube socket, connecting R33 to R18 (pin G to pin K), removed the previously installed 68 ohm power resistors and the 1N4007 diode. Boost channel is not silent anymore.

I still would like to know how to fix the HV supply tho just for the sake of true 100% repair and as a learning experience.
 
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Well, apparently that weird behavior was caused by the small auto transformer not working properly, so I removed it and replaced it with a 10:1 step down transformer wired in reverse. This brought back the HT supply and the tube is happy now.
 
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