Mastur (debating)

[Brian Roth]

I seldom make political comments here. My Best Friend (who is VERY Right-leaning right in his politics...we have friendly/often noisy chats when we play Yahtzee or Dominos).....we attempted to watch the so-called debate today. Kevin is always ribbing me that I am a RINO because I am a Registered Independent voter....yet I lean somewhat Right.

Maybe it is just me....decades ago I took Speech and Debate classes in What was once called "High School".

What Kevin and I watched was...at best...was a food fight that would have perfect for a Jerry Springer show.

Is this the best we can do? Two ancient men (sigh...I'm age 69) with billions of dollars behind them that are literally "reality TV stars" for the next President? Trump and Biden...best we can do? None of the Republicans I watched in the food-fight are worthy of an election even as the Salina City "dog catcher". Biden is an even larger hot mess as well.

What we watched tonight was appalling; Fox Food Fight. No rules/no moderation from my memories of how a debate was properly conducted.

OK...I'm better now...LOL!

Bri

 

[ruffrecords]

The real problem is there is not an ounce of integrity between them (and even less in the puppeteers behind the scenes who control them).

I am old too (72) and live in a small close of four houses occupied by retired folk like me. We have a shared driveway to our garages and we occasionally congregate there and have a chat. Talk inevitably turns to the lamentable state of the world and politics in particular. Several times we have proposed forming the Common Sense Party but of course nothing ever comes of it.

I was a teenager in the 60s. It was a time when everything felt possible and often it was. My grandaughter recently turned 18. Her early teenage years were spent wondering if the was really a boy, a view prompted a so called 'therapist' who was supposed to be helping her with anger issues caused by an absent father. Fortunately she soon discovered boys so that phase soon passed.

I read an article the other day about 9 year old kids being used as cash mules to launder money for criminal gangs. They pay money into their bank accounts and the withdraw all but a percentage of it. What is a 9 year old kid doing having a bank account???

Cheers

Ian

 

[iomegaman]

Totally agree Ian...its the "Loudness Wars" gone politick...whoever screams the loudest wins...
I am no fan of all of Gavin Newsoms policies but he is a master at debate and comes prepared...he torched Sean Hannity for misinformation and backed up with statistic right off his head...in other words he memorized data...


The real issue for me is it is not serious political discussion...its not about policy at all, it has no meaningful solutions to any real issues and is all dog whistle sort of sound bites...

"Anti-Woke" versus humane solutions...

"Anti-CRT" instead of racial educational equality moving towards economic solutions....

"Anti-sexual identity" instead of empathy and freedom of expression...

If all you are is composed of all you are AGAINST, then you are not anything...you are simply anti-whatever the popular thing is...


A shadow is not "anti-light" it is simply the absence of light

 

[ruffrecords]

I agree, all this negativity is downright depressing.

Cheers

Ian

 

[JohnRoberts]

I seldom make political comments here. My Best Friend (who is VERY Right-leaning right in his politics...we have friendly/often noisy chats when we play Yahtzee or Dominos).....we attempted to watch the so-called debate today. Kevin is always ribbing me that I am a RINO because I am a Registered Independent voter....yet I lean somewhat Right.

Not to be too pedantic but that is not what RINO means... "republican in name only" for republicans who spend like democrats.

Maybe it is just me....decades ago I took Speech and Debate classes in What was once called "High School".

What Kevin and I watched was...at best...was a food fight that would have perfect for a Jerry Springer show.

they were trying secure sound bites that they can use in their campaigns and discredit other candidates with mud flinging that sticks.

I did not watch, but it is impossible to not hear the high lights repeated over and over.

Is this the best we can do? Two ancient men (sigh...I'm age 69) with billions of dollars behind them that are literally "reality TV stars" for the next President? Trump and Biden...best we can do? None of the Republicans I watched in the food-fight are worthy of an election even as the Salina City "dog catcher". Biden is an even larger hot mess as well.

Pretty much everyone on that stage is better qualified that our current POTUS, while the center stage is stronger than the wings.

What we watched tonight was appalling; Fox Food Fight. No rules/no moderation from my memories of how a debate was properly conducted.

its not a proper debate, its a scrum with everybody fighting to win extra minutes of exposure for their messaging. That is indeed a zero sum game, only so many minutes of debate show air time.

OK...I'm better now...LOL!

Bri

Totally agree Ian...its the "Loudness Wars" gone politick...whoever screams the loudest wins...
I am no fan of all of Gavin Newsoms policies but he is a master at debate and comes prepared...he torched Sean Hannity for misinformation and backed up with statistic right off his head...in other words he memorized data...

Your man Gavin, who swears he isn't running in '24 is already planning to debate Gov DeSantis in Nov with your other buddy Hannity as the moderator.

I wouldn't doubt that he is a better debater than De Santis... this will be good practice for him, maybe for both.

There is also speculation about somebody completely different getting nominated at the convention next year. it is almost too late for anybody new to get on state ballots.

JR

 

[iomegaman]

Not to be too pedantic but that is not what RINO means... "republican in name only" for republicans who spend like democrats.

they were trying secure sound bites that they can use in their campaigns and discredit other candidates with mud flinging that sticks.

I did not watch, but it is impossible to not hear the high lights repeated over and over.

Pretty much everyone on that stage is better qualified that our current POTUS, while the center stage is stronger than the wings.

its not a proper debate, its a scrum with everybody fighting to win extra minutes of exposure for their messaging. That is indeed a zero sum game, only so many minutes of debate show air time.


Your man Gavin, who swears he isn't running in '24 is already planning to debate Gov DeSantis in Nov with your other buddy Hannity as the moderator.

I wouldn't doubt that he is a better debater than De Santis... this will be good practice for him, maybe for both.

There is also speculation about somebody completely different getting nominated at the convention next year. it is almost too late for anybody new to get on state ballots.

JR

Yeah unless Biden hits some sort of health bump I don't see anyone replacing him at this point...

Newsome is obviously gearing up for some kind of run sometime...


I grew up as a Bush era republican...was center-right on most everything...mainly because at that time the "declared platform" was small government get out of the way of capitalism...regardless of actual policy...and democrats were kinda known as Big Bail Out Government Handout...

Things have actually morphed into the opposite in a lot of the platform ideas...

I have actually nothing in common with todays republican party...it is so far away from its former roots as to be unrecognizable...


And in a very limited 2 party system it comes down to law and order for me...

I want candidates to be accountable for their actions on both sides of the line...

If you cannot support basic law and order you have no business in leadership.

 

[scott2000]

Yeah unless Biden hits some sort of health bump I don't see anyone replacing him at this point...

RFK Jr. starts kinda breaking down why starting at 46 min ish...actually 49.5...... interesting... Nasty..ugh..

 

[iomegaman]

I'm sorry I simply cannot listen to RFK Jr...I listened to about 10 minutes but he is simply not healthy...his voice sounds like he's about to croak any minute now...THAT alone would prohibit him from ever winning an election.
Its basic mimetic rivalry, he is too different than the average person...regardless of any evidence or policy he would bring the average person will simply not vote for him...it's the same reason DeSantis has a snowballs chance in hell...he's just too odd...

As much as we like to pretend we are voting on the issues we are not, we are voting for the person most like us...it's the way democracy works.

 

[Brian Roth]

I'm an Oklahoma expat....born and raised there and resided there for decades. Both of my parents were VERY active in local/state GOP politics. In fact, Mom was one of the Electors for Bob Dole in 1996; she was thrilled to travel to DC for the Electoral College voting.

In those "old days" Okla. was owned and operated by the Good Ol' Boy Democrats. Constant corruption.

https://www.soonerpolitics.org/corruption-chronicle/the-oklahoma-county-commissioner-scandal
One of the D governors was also convicted in another scandal....etc etc.

GOP was the opposition party. So I had that influence growing up.

In Mom's last years before she passed last year at age 92, she began to dislike what the GOP had become. She began to understand why I switched to "I" many years ago. Shrug...

Bri

 

[scott2000]

I listened to about 10 minutes but he is simply not healthy.

He's healthier than me and I'm no slouch

his voice sounds like he's about to croak any minute now..

It's a disorder ...spasmodic dysphonia...

THAT alone would prohibit him from ever winning an election

Big stretch seeing how things have been previously. Besides, the only thing we know is that you wouldn't vote for him..lol

Too bad. Similar way they burned Bernie, they rig the game and it's legal...

...all the states that Biden did poor in, if any Democratic challenger campaigns in those places, the votes for them simply won't count?...nice...

"As much as we like to pretend we are voting on the issues we are not, we are voting for the person most like us...it's the way democracy works."

eesh...no wonder people got so worked up over people that voted for Trump....lol
say it ain't so...

 

[iomegaman]

I'm a realist...there is not one candidate living or past that I agree 100% with...and I'm probably not a minority in this opinion...


If only HALF of the indictments against DJT are proveable crimes then we really are down to electing Biden or electing someone who will destroy the very basis of American democracy to avoid prison...

As much as I would like the 2024 election to be different than that, it IS the election in a nutshell at this point.

Biden and Trump could BOTH be eliminated over night by all sorts of reasons related to health/age/life choices/etc...

At that point the election would be a whole new ball game...


But now...as it stands...and up until something dramatic changes the equation, it WILL come down to Biden or Trump.

And thats a no brainer and unfortunately a lot of people with no brains continue to vote.
A third party candidate cannot win in todays American landscape...not yet...and RFK is not a democrat and not a republican either...his own family does not support him...in other words those close enough to see what he really is do not endorse him.

 

[Matador]

If only HALF of the indictments against DJT are proveable crimes then we really are down to electing Biden or electing someone who will destroy the very basis of American democracy to avoid prison...

All of that is true: BUT...the Democrats made us wear masks! So we'll have to vote for the Insurrection Party.

 

[scott2000]

his own family does not support him...in other words those close enough to see what he really is do not endorse him.

It's funny, my wife was talking with my sister a few weeks ago and I guess they ended up talking about stuff related to me at some point and it was shocking to hear how much my sister didn't know outside of my step father's view of things since they are much closer and she is his child. I love my family but, we are by no stretch of the imagination the Waltons.
5 Kennedys work in the Biden administration in some capacity or another.
RFK Jr said him and Biden have a good relationship which is odd. Of course his father's bust sits behind Biden in the oval office too.
He's an interesting and intelligent man. Monsanto doesn't like him I'm sure.

But I was only linking the video because he talks about some of the inner workings of the DNC and it was interesting to hear. But yeah, it's a bit like mixing trying to focus more on what he's saying.. Still easier than trying to understand some other people in politics...lol

 

[JohnRoberts]

Kennedy is smart, but not electable, American voters are low information and impressionable. He just doesn't "sound" presidential.

Kennedy is doing hand to hand combat with the DNC that are working to cancel him (not very democratic).

JR

 

[scott2000]

He just doesn't "sound" presidential.

If you mean the disorder, yeah...But I can listen without cringing to what he's actually saying a whole lot more than the last 2...

 

[iomegaman]

If you mean the disorder, yeah...But I can listen without cringing to what he's actually saying a whole lot more than the last 2...

I keep trying to suggest that voting is a mimetic exercise for about 80% of the population...

There's a huge portion that will vote straight party ticket regardless of candidate...

Another segment thinks about it the last minute and probably google candidates while they're in the voting booth...


But our "opinions" are formed in much baser data...if a candidate has some sort of ailment it MUST be offset by some endearing "human" condition that swings emotions...

Bidens stutter is balanced by losing his wife and son...


No one knows anything about RFK Jr except his extreme positions...and frankly his positions on vaccines and 5G makes him a nut case for college graduate voters...

His ailment has no "endearing" counterbalance...quite the opposite.

If you follow Rene Girard's model RFK is the perfect candidate to be the scapegoat...he should probably really rethink running for ANY public office.



P.S. Just saw that RFK Jr. has decided to run as an independent...this will cause havoc for some...

Charlie Kirk is losing his shit because he says it will take away conspiracy voters from Trump...

 

[JohnRoberts]

If you mean the disorder, yeah...But I can listen without cringing to what he's actually saying a whole lot more than the last 2...

Sarah Palin had a betty-boop sing-song voice that made her hard to take seriously. President Bush had a speech affectation that caused many to dismiss him.

I keep trying to suggest that voting is a mimetic exercise for about 80% of the population...

you are better at mind reading than I am. The economist view is that people vote their perceived self interest, for some that may be people that look and sound like them, for others with social agendas someone with similar advocacy.

There's a huge portion that will vote straight party ticket regardless of candidate...

?

Another segment thinks about it the last minute and probably google candidates while they're in the voting booth...

and some don't even show up unless motivated by some issue they take personally

But our "opinions" are formed in much baser data...if a candidate has some sort of ailment it MUST be offset by some endearing "human" condition that swings emotions...

?

Bidens stutter is balanced by losing his wife and son...

Stutter? He is a long time well known bull sh_tter, been doing it, and getting away with it ( at least part of the time) for decades.

No one knows anything about RFK Jr except his extreme positions...and frankly his positions on vaccines and 5G makes him a nut case for college graduate voters...

The Kennedy family is a well established political institution in MA, but RFK Jr appears to have fallen out of family/party favor

His ailment has no "endearing" counterbalance...quite the opposite.

? He probably should not be fronting a political campaign

If you follow Rene Girard's model RFK is the perfect candidate to be the scapegoat...he should probably really rethink running for ANY public office.

It doesn't much matter what he thinks, the democratic party power brokers have already decided to cancel him.

I don't think voters analyze candidates policy all that much. TV ads and social media paint pictures with engineered sound bites, and crafted photo ops.

JR

 

[scott2000]

No one knows anything about RFK Jr except his extreme positions

3% government mortgages for everyone. First 500k to teachers.
Free passports for everyone...
Yeah...extreme...

 

[Brian Roth]

I keep going back to my Oklahoma roots/observations. Years ago, when the Democrats essentially controlled everything, we had what were called Yellow Dog Democrat voters.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_dog_Democrat
Straight party voting was the norm. "Stamp the Rooster" with the rooster representing the Democrat party on the ballots.

https://www.enidnews.com/oklahoma/e...cle_b323eac6-6b40-11ed-8724-97d7d79c33a7.html
Much of that was leftovers from the Civil War when white voters hated the GOP and thus were solidily Democrat voters. Jim Crow, etc etc.

Of course nowadays, the GOP controls OK potitics as well as here in KS. One oddithy here in KS...the current governor is a twice elected (fairly conservative) Democrat. Of course, the GOP which controls both Houses HATE her and do anything they can to block anything she proposes.

Another KS oddity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Kansas_abortion_referendum
Looking at the voting results it seems the urban and college town votes that shot that one down. It wasn't even close in the voting.

Bri

 

[sodderboy]

If all you are is composed of all you are AGAINST, then you are not anything...you are simply anti-whatever the popular thing is...


A shadow is not "anti-light" it is simply the absence of light

I totally agree. In debate you have allowed your opponent frame the debate from the beginning. That is why I do not use the word capitalism.
That said, your anti-list is the short list of a complete pernicious invasion of fiction as fact, informational "concepts" that are designed to brainwash a young public that have to be countered in the immediacy, with debate following. Going further back than Kunta Kinte with these lying lier red diaper babies.
But the invaders will not debate, they will hate, scream, spit, spray, push, clobber, etc. It is their way or physical/electronic tantrum, blacklisting, doxing, demonetizing. Even to listen that some of their ideas are actually bigoted.
Just one example and I'll go- now there is a Girl Scout badge for gay awareness. One of the objectives is "create a LGBTQWERTY music playlist". If that isn't bigoted and tone deaf, what is?!? "Well Ashley, "Rhiannon" isn't really gay enough, listen to some Lez Zepplin" Talk about identity politics! Does GS National give a guide for gay music? What a total insult to music and art. What a time we live.
Totally have to link Groucho!
Mike
PS: anyone standing with Chris Christie is a loooo-suh! if you ask me.