Me Too much

[dmp]

Interesting bias in this thread.
One the one hand, the social #metoo mob justice is being criticized in cases of wealthy powerful people who have not faced criminal prosecution (i.e. Dershowitz)

this is about the larger picture of people being found guilty until proved innocent by courts of public opinion

On the other hand, the prosecution being dropped against  Smollet is criticized, in what appears to be the exact kind of social mod justice 'guilty unless proven innocent' mentality that was being criticized.
Ironic.
I don't disgree that the Smollet case stinks. It is most likely the prosecution bungled the case and wants it to go away, although conspiracies are sure fun to think about.
But the Epstein/Dershowitz case is 1000 times worse.  And if you really start reading about the bias of 'justice' in this country you get pretty depressed (i.e. the slap on the wrist sentencing of Brock Turner, Paul Manafort, etc... rampant evidence of non-prosecuted tax evasion / insider trading, etc...) 

 

[scott2000]

I must admit I'm guilty of coming to conclusions myself when "hearing" about stuff......

Like this Disney employee headlines......

Disney worker charged with sex assault on guest

Disney worker accused of rape had theft, driving cases in Maryland

Disney World employee Wilbert Brookins 'tried to rape single mother ...


He was found not guilty by a jury after they heard the case.....

He had a public defender ......

 

[JohnRoberts]

Interesting bias in this thread.
One the one hand, the social #metoo mob justice is being criticized in cases of wealthy powerful people who have not faced criminal prosecution (i.e. Dershowitz)
On the other hand, the prosecution being dropped against  Smollet is criticized, in what appears to be the exact kind of social mod justice 'guilty unless proven innocent' mentality that was being criticized.
Ironic.
I don't disgree that the Smollet case stinks. It is most likely the prosecution bungled the case and wants it to go away, although conspiracies are sure fun to think about.
But the Epstein/Dershowitz case is 1000 times worse.  And if you really start reading about the bias of 'justice' in this country you get pretty depressed (i.e. the slap on the wrist sentencing of Brock Turner, Paul Manafort, etc... rampant evidence of non-prosecuted tax evasion / insider trading, etc...)

I was vaguely aware of Epstein as a flaming pedophile with wealthy, democratic, and harvard (same thing?) connections.

Bill Clinton reportedly took repeated trips on the "Lolita express", Epstein's jet used for junkets to his St Thomas  home/office and other destinations. Besides Dershowitz other high profile names that flew with him include Larry Summers, Naomi Campbell, and even Stephen Pinker. Do we now ASSume they are all pedophiles participating in under age sex junkets?

I won't repeat Dershowitz's denial, he is more than capable of defending himself, but this association with Epstein is being run up the flagpole to buttress the recent metoo attacks against his reputation. 

I vaguely recall a high profile NJ senator Menendez was reportedly a frequent flier and connected to a reported underage sex junket to the Dominican republic.  I didn't care much about it back then or now... Politicians are not known for possessing high moral character.  :

Have you forgotten to accuse Trump for his past association with Epstein? Epstein is pretty tight with the Davos crowd, so there is a pretty long list of wealthy celerities to tar with that broad brush.

I am a little weary of this ugly identity politics, but i expect a lot more of the same in the 2020 election run up.  :'(

Have fun with all this dirty laundry, but clean your hands after playing with it. 

JR

 

[dmp]

And the team politics goes full throttle  ;D
Surprising no one here in the brewery.

 

[Gold]

Have you forgotten to accuse Trump for his past association with Epstein? Epstein is pretty tight with the Davos crowd, so there is a pretty long list of wealthy celerities to tar with that broad brush.

The woman who recruited many of the girls is a member of Mar-a-Largo. She recruited girls from there.

 

[JohnRoberts]

And the team politics goes full throttle  ;D
Surprising no one here in the brewery.

You brought up the subject of Jeffery Epstein. The only way I recognize his name is from old Sen Menendez and Bill Clinton, headlines from years ago, while he is apparently associated with a long list of wealthy, famous, and powerful people.

I didn't know he was a calculus and physics professor either, but the first sentence of his wiki page notes that he is a registered sex offender with at least one conviction.

====

Dershowitz is not on my "team"... I defended him because he sounds like an honest man, and guilt by association being used to smear his reputation is classic political dirty tricks.

If he really is a sex offender I will be deeply disappointed but why would a guilty sex offender invite a FBI investigation upon himself? I don't hear Bill Cosby or Harvey Weinstein inviting such scrutiny. Dershowitz does not strike me as a stupid man either, but as a high profile lawyer he probably rubs elbows with some real scumbags. 

JR

 

[dmp]

You brought up the subject of Jeffery Epstein.

Here is one of the top google results searching for "Dershowitz accuser":

Virginia Roberts, one of Epstein's accusers, claimed that she was "loaned" by Epstein to Dershowitz. The Herald notes that in a 2015 court affidavit, Roberts wrote, "I had sexual intercourse with Dershowitz at least six times. The first time was when I was about 16, early on in my servitude to Epstein and it continued until I was 19." The trysts, she wrote, allegedly happened at Epstein's homes in Palm Beach, New Mexico and on Epstein's island in the Caribbean.

This comes up in a search for "Virginia Roberts Epstein"

Virginia Roberts was working at Mar-a-Lago when she was recruited to be a masseuse to Palm Beach hedge fund manager Jeffrey Epstein. She was lured into a life of depravity and sexual abuse.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Here is one of the top google results searching for "Dershowitz accuser":

This comes up in a search for "Virginia Roberts Epstein"

No doubt , thanks for repeating the smear, for any who hadn't heard it yet. Do you believe everything on google is true? 

This is why Dershowitz wants the FBI to investigate them both... let her make those specific claims to the FBI, exposing herself to prosecution under section 1001 of title 18 for lying to federal investigators (same regulation that put Martha Stewart away).

He is apparently a very good lawyer getting Epstein off the hook for deplorable criminal behavior with only a light confinement (with daytime work release to his own office) in FL.  It is not a crime to be an effective lawyer, but not the kind of client I would like to be associated with except for the part that he is very wealthy.

Unfortunately I don't think the FBI takes requests... from Dershowitz or Jussie Smollett's parents (while I suspect the FBI may already be looking into Jussie's mail mischief (a federal beef). 

JR

 

[Scodiddly]

Just to provide a little contrast on the "privilege" aspect, compare this to the Brock Turner story.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Just to provide a little contrast on the "privilege" aspect, compare this to the Brock Turner story.

That judge was later recalled because he gave a lighter sentence than the court of public opinion decided.

Similarly the Chicago prosecutor for Smollett case is not very popular right now for how that case has been handled so far (probably not over, feds may investigate looking for corruption and more... What corruption In Chicago?  : ).

OK admittedly I can be a little slow sometimes, Dershowitz has attracted the full rage of the liberal/progressive community for writing a book defending President Trump wrt Mueller investigation.  Previously Dershowitz a well respected legal scholar was a darling of the left but taking this stand on principle and opportunity (he was also on the OJ Simpson defense team) has burned those old bridges and likely precipitated the questionable attacks on his reputation.

We have seen this playbook before, and probably will again as we prepare for another contentious election cycle.

I repeat I am not a fan of Dershowitz's politics, but his legal analysis seems thoughtful, even if he is pimping his book (that I will not read).

JR

 

[JohnRoberts]

In fairness to "say it isn't so" Joe Biden, he appears to be the most recent scalp targeted by the #metoo crowd. I won't debate the odds against him getting elected as the creepy old white guy in the room for the upcoming democratic primary, but IMO it is safe to argue he is unlikely to be a sexual predator, like Cosby or Weinstein.

He is guilty of uninvited physical intimacy in public situations (? public... that we know of) that clearly make recipients of that attention uncomfortable.  I suspect he has gotten away with this for years because of his celebrity/office. This is arguably a subtle abuse of power but probably not consciously done (if nobody ever complained). It seems political opportunism to make a public case about this now.

These hands were dealt years ago, but only now since the recent tectonic shifts in modern culture, are the cards worth laying down now. I expect more of this in the future as #metoo has become weaponized for political gain. Politics wasn't very honorable before...  :

Glad I'm a nobody...  8)

JR

PS: Amusing perhaps to speculate about how Bill Clinton would fare under #metoo sensibilities, but in fairness to him he was not the first powerful politician to take advantage of the opportunities presented. If anything It's remarkable how many resist the temptation (Pres Jimmy Carter admitted that he had lust in his heart...  ). 
 

 

[Scodiddly]

PS: Amusing perhaps to speculate about how Bill Clinton would fare under #metoo sensibilities, but in fairness to him he was not the first powerful politician to take advantage of the opportunities presented. If anything It's remarkable how many resist the temptation (Pres Jimmy Carter admitted that he had lust in his heart...  ).   

How do you suppose Trump would fare in this climate?    :

 

[JohnRoberts]

How do you suppose Trump would fare in this climate?    :

I am pretty sure he is in this climate, so your question has already been answered.

JR

 

[JohnRoberts]

Interesting to read our early impressions of the Jussie Smollet case.

Since he was found guilty on 5 of 6 charges, I guess it was a good decision to actually prosecute him. If possible the prosecutor in Chicago has gotten even more lax since then. The mayor was recently on TV blaming the store owners for being looted.
===
A lot has happened since back then. Epstein never got to use his formidable collection of blackmail leverage against powerful people. As often happens with people in that specific circumstance he is no longer breathing. His primary helper, Ghislaine Maxwell, is now on trial and still breathing for now. It stands to be seen if she has additional evidence to use for leverage (I'd speculate that she knows at least where some skeletons are still hidden). There are a lot of powerful people who want this to go away. I wonder if the FBI has a special warehouse for all the incriminating dirty laundry they have accumulated about powerful people over the decades (like hunter's lap top?).

It is interesting to see how many news sources and high profile people believed the Jussie Smollet hoax, that he was attacked by Trump supporters. I imagine it was an easy sell in that ugly partisan climate. At least back years ago, then President Obama apologized to the Cambridge, MA police officer he wrongly accused of racism, with a rose garden beer schmooze. I won't hold my breath about President Biden and Vice President Harris revisiting their supportive "Smollet" tweets. President Trump doesn't drink beer anyway.

I am waiting for the Smollet sentencing hearing in Jan, to see if the Judge holds his feet to the fire, to compensate Chicago for the massive costly police effort his hoax incurred, forces him to admit guilt, and apologize to the millions of people he insulted.

Interesting times. I don't expect this to be a popular topic for the many people who were sucked in.

JR

 

[ruffrecords]

Epstein represents an enormous pile of s..t being thrown at the biggest fan ever devised by man. I expect some folk to end up with some of it irrevocably stuck to their faces and that might even include a well known member of a certain English family.

Cheers

Ian

 

[hodad]

A lot has happened since back then. Epstein never got to use his formidable collection of blackmail leverage against powerful people. As often happens with people in that specific circumstance he is no longer breathing. His primary helper, Ghislaine Maxwell, is now on trial and still breathing for now. It stands to be seen if she has additional evidence to use for leverage (I'd speculate that she knows at least where some skeletons are still hidden). There are a lot of powerful people who want this to go away. I wonder if the FBI has a special warehouse for all the incriminating dirty laundry they have accumulated about powerful people over the decades (like hunter's lap top?).

It is interesting to see how many news sources and high profile people believed the Jussie Smollet hoax,

JR

So are you still convinced, as you stated you were back then, of Dershowitz's innocence?

 

[JohnRoberts]

So are you still convinced, as you stated you were back then, of Dershowitz's innocence?

I am not ready to convict him because so many from your team don't like him (in fact that gives me pause). I am not a big fan of the court of public opinion that was so often wrong before media and big tech started rooting for one side in politics and manipulating public sentiment to that end.

Dershowitz seems like a very smart and principled man who believes in the constitution and rule of law. If he succumbed to a temptation of the flesh he wouldn't be the first or last. Bill Clinton is allowed out in public these days, and even Bill Cosby walks among us free men.

I think Dershowitz wrote a book I didn't read, maybe it will be a cheap paper back by now. Thanks for reminding me to check.

JR

 

[JohnRoberts]

Epstein represents an enormous pile of s..t being thrown at the biggest fan ever devised by man. I expect some folk to end up with some of it irrevocably stuck to their faces and that might even include a well known member of a certain English family.

Cheers

Ian

I think the plan was for that sh__ storm to fade away along with his life (no he probably didn't commit suicide).... but they have one more trial to worry through. I doubt the US prosecutors have much interest in the royal family, brit media probably cares more. IIRC Maxwell is from a wealthy UK family.

Epstein is like one of those ugly secrets in plain sight that everybody knew about but gave him a pass (like Weinstein, etc). I give the #metoo movement more credit than anti-corruption sentiment for taking him down since corruption appears alive and bigger than ever. Who is buying Hunter's paintings?

JR

 

[hodad]

. If he succumbed to a temptation of the flesh he wouldn't be the first or last. Bill Clinton is allowed out in public these days, and even Bill Cosby walks among us free men.

And are you defending either of them? I certainly am not.

Dershowitz's protestations of innocence don't pass my personal smell test:

Dershowitz told them he did get a massage at Epstein's residence but it was from a very "old, old Russian woman."

"Were there young women in another part of the house giving massages when I wasn't around? I have no idea of that," he said.

"I kept my underwear on during the massage," Dershowitz went on to stammer. "I don't like massages particularly."

 

[JohnRoberts]

you sound convinced...

Sorry.

JR