Microphone Test Sessions

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Not many players, yet.

OK, let me say this.
I like  Tim Campbell  (and I've bought a capsule from him).
I like Ben and Veronica Sneesby (and I've bought a capsule from them).
I like Eric Heiserman (I haven't bought a capsule from him, yet, but that seems only a matter of time).
I'm not affiliated with any of them.

I like shootouts, too. I think they can be fun if they are taken for what they are. Perfect they are hardly ever.
On this forum, we could use more sound samples for sure and maybe more shootouts.
Yes, there are  interests which could be a problem, especially if a market player is himself somehow involved in the test. On the other hand, we can all see where it comes from and most members here know who is who and what their interests are.

All that said, I do see the risks. And I do have a few questions about this one.
One I already asked and I will repeat it. On October 29th, chunger wrote the following:

Getting ready for a serious mic test session in studio. . . on the mk47 front, I am curious to gather data on a few items:

- Thiersch Blue Line
- Eric Heiserman HK47
- Beesneez M7

...I have a strong suspicion based on initial use that one capsule will be "weeded out"...

So my question(s) for chunger is (are): "Did you consider the capsule might be anywhere between broken and not up to spec. And if so, did you contact Ben before the test?"
 
Having done some shootouts, I will say that it is hard to NOT be subconsciously biased, in some way. Just including a mic (or capsule) you are very familiar with, and using the preamp that best suits that mic, etc... can bias a test.
I try to make testing blind for myself- because I know the results are more interesting and truthful that way.

I think Tim raises some good points, and Chunger could volunteer some details to help with credibility.
Did he pay full price for all the capsules, or were some donated?
Does he make a commission selling any of the reviewed capsules?
Did he set up the shootout blindly and fairly?
 
And I don't mean any offense about credibility - I meant it in the sense of how financial advisors will disclose if they own a stock before making a recommendation.
I'm sure this shootout was meant with the best intentions.
 
U87 Listening

The real U87

sounds like it should, prominent mid range and a slightly compressed sound overall. Sit's well in the track.

U87 Clone w/Heiserman capsule

This is the closest of the two clones, has some of the mid-range poke of the real deal, but doesn't sit in the track like the real deal.

Nothing offensive, but nothing inspiring.

U87 clone w/Peluso capsule

Not even in the same realm, thin, pointy and uninspiring.

Seems to overly emphasize the upper mid-range.

Neither of the clones nails the U87 sound. With that said it doesn't mean they can't be useful.

My opinions for now, more to come.

Mark
Sharktankpro.com
 
Tim Campbell said:
  if someone releases a product they should expect that it will be subject to constructive criticism. 
That they should but it rings less true when doled out by someone with something to gain. Neumann, Bock, Gefell, etc. have never needed to compare their product to their competitors in order to gain market share. They leave that to uninvested parties.
You seem to be arguing in favour of not having frank disclosure about a product and or the the tester was deliberately biased ?
You couldn't be further from the truth. I very much in favor of an honest comparison. This isn't one no matter how you slice it especially when it contains biasing comments by the person it most serves.


sigh, I guess we do not share the same sensitivities or draw the same conclusion.


Thx chung, I appreciate having the comparative clips to listen to,  as one source of information.
 
I would love to hear best effort audio samples from all parties (independent or manufacturer) to establish a broader reference.  With an initial test, I am also setting up a process to continue adding data points including vintage microphones, but that incurs more cost so I want to do a few rounds of testing first to make sure the workflow is efficient.  Certainly other people would be better equipped to perform testing particularly people with extensive vintage microphone collections and tier 1 facilities, and I am sure it has been requested by a lot of people, but nobody else seems to have the time or inclination to set up sessions dedicated to producing comparative clips which to me is baffling, so I take it upon myself to do so.

It seems a lot of people here discount heavily the use of sound files at all for microphone development, and that may well be your philosophy, and I am not in a position to question other people's development methodologies, but for me and the people I actively collaborate with at distance, we heavily rely on audio samples to track development and I maintain close ties with a studio active in music production as it is critical to my process and a beneficial feedback for people I collaborate with.  It may not be "world class", but it is real-world and we work with competent professionals. 

To the question of the actual financial interest, I don't feel it is necessary or obligatory for me or any vendor/manufacturer to disclose the back-side financials, but in this case, there is really nothing to look at.  For premium microphone capsules, the items that I "sell" are nearly pass-through items that I pre-buy and stock as a service and to make it easier for more inexperienced builders to purchase what I feel to be a "good" option with minimal hassle and seasoned builders to have some convenience and reduced overall shipping costs for the project.  All capsules tested were purchased.

- Eric Heiserman HK12 capsule:  I pre-pay for batches of 10 capsules and purchase at a 8% discount.  Upon sale, paypal eats on average 3%, so I have a margin of 5%.  This leaves a profit of ~$21.25 per unit.  You can derive what conclusions you want from this arrangement, but I maintain that the primary reason for developing this capsule is to  make a backplate-correct variant optimized on the kit mic perpetually available at reasonable lead time for builders.  As these are truly labor and Q/C intensive, Eric's production capacity will likely hit a ceiling in the near future,  other GroupDIY members are already  assisting him on capsule assembly periodically, and there are talks of sourcing the backplates to other capsule manufacturers.

- For Eric Heiserman HK47 and HK67 capsules, I pay full price for capsules and do not stock them yet although they are being considered for mk47 bundle and I would like to see the K67 optimized for mk67 but I'm not sure it's there yet.  Margins on Eric's end indicate that there is no room outside of his own manufacture, so likely these will be straight pass-through.

- For Thiersch, I have no affiliation except a customer.

- For Beesneez, I have no affiliation except a customer.  I paid discount sale price for the M7.

- For Tim Campbell, I receive no discounts.  I previously offered to buy every available excess capsule in his production which to date has been 0 units.

To the inference that I am intentionally stacking the deck against products that I do not sell, why would I include the fact that the Heiserman HK12 catastrophically and irreparably failed mid-session if my intention is bump the sale of that capsule (the only one that I currently carry)?  I include it because it happened, and I was disappointed that it did.  And Eric needs to do better.  That is a diagnostic data point important for customers to have should other 1st run units experience similar failure.  I was mid-session with artists on the clock.  I had been juggling schedules for a month to set up the test date and working hard to prep the sample mics, and now I need to execute another test.  The Campbell CT12 equipped microphone by construction is a 100% teflon turret isolated point to point build. . .(HiZ and lowZ sections of the mic circuit).  It uses the best of several capsules we have on hand when vetted over long-term use, so it is "select" from the small sample that we have.  It is broken in and uses a Christian Whitmore sourced 1956 GE JG 6072A tube that tests near prime in it's life cycle.  I do not know how to build it better or to select a better test candidate from the resources that I have.

My opinion regarding Eric's 1st gen. HK87 capsule as tested were also not particularly good (others disagree and the disagreement seems consistent with previous acoustic guitar test).  But, as a result, information is now available about the differences between early and current K87 drill hole diameter.  Further testing can isolate that capsule design variable and now, people know they can request that early small-diameter spec if they want it instead of the current "standard" model.  It is of use for me to document the configuration for future reference before making changes to the mic.  It is also a useful data point for people trying to make a decisions about re-skinning an old vintage capsule or buying a new production one for repair.

For the Beesneez M7, the microphone is quiet.  The output is strong and undistorted.  The patterning works well.  The voltages are as expected.  The overall timbre of the tuning seems to concur with other friends who have used the capsule and others in the line.  There is a subset of people who prefer darker tuning on microphone capsules, and my assumption is that the capsule is tuned to a specification that I simply do not agree with or does not suit the microphone topology. . . which to me, is generally not a reason to return a product for major re-work especially one originally purchased more than 2 years ago (the on-sale price was good).  Now, if the product specs have changed since that point, I need to edit the post to reflect that information, and if Beesneez wants to show a new variant, I'm happy to exchange the capsule and put the mic up again, but I don't think it is reasonable for me as a customer to demand it.

As for my underlying motivations, they are quite simple:

- make top tier tools accessible to common people
- educate and embolden people to DIY (microphones, preamps, bass guitars, etc.)
- develop and foster the development of high quality studio products in an open manner and sell them

Alternate example: http://www.talkbass.com/threads/basses-for-newbies-sx-batch-build-thread.627147/

This iterative process of (design --> build --> test --> assess) of microphones or any other instrument or audio device involving studio testing to me is so basic that it somewhat baffles me that people would be 100% receptive to seeing all manner of microphones developed and put together and talk about them ad nauseam, but all of a sudden become hostile when invited to listen to them comparatively.

I want kit builders to have a better chance of picking parts aligned with their sonic goals.  I want beginning builders/recordists who may not know what their sonic goals are yet to build excellent "all-around" configurations that will serve them well into the future for a variety of applications.

It makes no sense for me to develop or collaborate a kit, show the build process top to bottom, and then line up studio sessions to trick people away from buying the best suited primary components or by sonic trickery to divert people to a sub-optimal configuration.  The success and reputation of the kit is strengthened by customers selecting the highest caliber components and achieving the best possible sonic results.  THAT drives greater interest and sales.  That emboldens the builder to seek out additional projects.

To the general issue of using audio files to do product development or make component decisions, there is always a skew or correction factor between the "far side" or my recording generated in my room and signal chain and the "near side" which would be your monitors, headphones, computer speakers, etc.  Or, ultimately, your physical build based on the same referenced parts in your recording environment.  So in the development process, it is important to make the full loop often and reference the item being developed hands-on.  So a lot of stuff is mailed back and forth.  In between those full-loop verifications though, audio clips go a long way to assist in collaboratively determining how far to go when tweaking any variable. 

I think to assert that audio samples. . . especially carefully and methodically generated sets of samples is completely or nearly completely useless in component selection would be a bit too far.  On the opposite end, it would also be presumptuous to assume audio clips (even well-executed sets) conclusively prove how a complex system will behave when you close the loop on your side and execute a build.  But I believe that taken in context with an understanding that there will be a skew and correction factor, they are quite useful to inform decisions.

 
Chunger, thanks for chiming in. 
I respect that you are trying to do the right thing here, however you do admit to a close relationship with Eric. On the page containing these samples you single him out for praise.
Your description of your methodology used to record these samples you state that these files are derived from separate passes recorded at different times which leaves chance for unintentional variation between  files.
I feel the recording you posted of my capsule lacks proximity effect, leaving it sounding thin and not the optimal for this singer. If she had moved one or two inches closer to the mic the recording would have sounded much better. What would listener's impressions be if say when you were to record the HK12 capsule she had leaned an inch or two closer or sung slightly off axis?
Would I suddenly find myself singled out for criticism over a recording flaw?
I would really love to hear a recording of an original C12 and then one of your kits with the capsule from the C12 mounted in it. This would give a very clear indication as to what's possible to achieve from this build.
I  appreciate all the trouble you go through to offer your terrific and affordable kit, I really do. Keep up the good work.
Please excuse me if I seem so dogged in pursuit of this but I avoid exploiting the work of others to highlight the the benefits of my own and I frown on others doing the same at my expense.
 
I agree with Tim that proximity plays a huge part with directional studio mics. But I'd like to add that this is the responsibility of the vocalist first, especially when doing seperate takes (no multiple mics) and when using headphones.
And in all fairness, chunger did write this on the blogspot page:

A few notes about the test method and setup.  We felt that for vocal performance, proximity effect and a lot of other microphone positioning variables cannot be properly tested when putting multiple microphones up simultaneously.  Small position shifts as small as half an inch can make huge sonic differences, and I feel it is impractical to crowd everything into such a small area.  Also, a good singer will adjust performance and distancing to the mic's sonic feedback in the cans.  So, if you put up 5 microphones simultaneously, which one is the performer monitoring?  We opted to find a performer who can make reasonably consistent takes and to optimize the microphone placement for each individual mic like we would in a normal session. . . then, record the microphones one at a time.

I do believe she could/should have come in a little bit closer. Still, I have a feeling a C12 is not the best match for her kind of voice. And that has nothing to do with the (undisputed) quality of Tim's capsule.
 
Hi Fellow Members,  I really have tried to resist , but i couldnt

so here it is again,

all intention here is to relax the atmosphere  ;)

58d028199443b.gif


 
Tim Campbell said:
Eric, I have removed my thread ...

...there's clearly a pattern here...

...what's going to happen when brilliant microphone tech Shannon Rhoades releases his own custom-built C12 capsule and enters the DIY community fray?...yes, that would be the same Shannon Rhoades, brother of Tracy Korby,  who maintains the priceless collection of vintage mics at the reknown Nashville studio complex, Blackbird Studios...the same tech who modified/restored Martina McBride's (infamous) ELAM 251...

...you can almost feel the paradigm shift...

http://micrehab.com/
 

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Tim,

Just to be clear my handle is "Tskguy"

I hope that's not in reference to me?? I haven't chimed in on this thread yet..  :eek:
 
Sorry Eric, I'm getting my alias' crossed. Some people participating in this thread keep their identity completely hidden.

There are so many people making CK12's presently that Shannon's participation won't change anything.

Haun MBHO
Josephson
Campbell
Beesneez
Tskguy
Korby
Beyerdynamic
Lawson
Telefunken
Etc...

I have had some of Tracy's capsules. They sound like CK12's. So do all the others I've listed above. If anybody thinks they'll make their fortune building CK12's  my own experience would say they are wrong.
The market isn't growing nears as fast as the list of producers. Honestly a K47 is easier to build and the mics it goes into are more useful and popular than a C12. CK12's just happen to be the flavor of the month.

Better start practicing my banjo  :-\



 
dmp said:
And I don't mean any offense about credibility - I meant it in the sense of how financial advisors will disclose if they own a stock before making a recommendation.
I'm sure this shootout was meant with the best intentions.

ah think that is referred to as " transparency"
 
...what's going to happen when brilliant microphone tech Shannon Rhoades releases his own custom-built C12 capsule and enters the DIY community fray?...yes, that would be the same Shannon Rhoades, brother of Tracy Korby,  who maintains the priceless collection of vintage mics at the reknown Nashville studio complex, Blackbird Studios...the same tech who modified/restored Martina McBride's (infamous) ELAM 251...
On my bench today a vintage Telefunken ELA M250 non export model with AC701 tube  #170
1962607_10204499361058005_559731175502970462_n.jpg

There's also this
10403669_10204499366098131_6610935350063077774_n.jpg
 
Naa, old stuff those. And they're probably not mounted with oxygene-free directional wires, or hand-carved from solid alimony. Soo yesterday...

Better leave them with me, and I'll dispose of them for you..  ;D

Jakob E.
ps: will I get to hear them?
 

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