Mid Side Mastering (with Wayne) First Run OPEN!

[served]

Hi Guys,

Its time to start a new project.
This time its MID SIDE mastering device.

The heart is from Wayne Kirkwood's pen.
http://www.ka-electronics.com/KAelectronics/MS_Matrix/MS_Matrix.htm

So its a collaboration with Wayne and I have his approval.

The machine is currently under testing in Forward Studio.
If it is a succsess I will release the first KIT
There is going to be only 4 KITs sold in this run.

The KIT has the following parts:

1) MS Matrix board
2) Input-Output PCB for XLR sockets and realys + recovery stages.
3) Custom enclosure.
4) Custom PSU (PCB+transformer)
5) Switching PSU for realys and lights.

It will have Precision Mid-Side matrix.
2xStereo in (switchable)
2x MS loop (switchable)
1x Master loop for stereo signal with bypass
Stereo out
Output gain (+/-)
MS width (or input gain)
Mute M/Mute S
And some other tools you can use.

The goal is to save your time from soldering wires and keep it clean and simple.
It fits inside a 2U 19" rack.


This will be a developement in progress. So if you have any special wishes write them up. Next patch migh have this future.

Currently the backpanel is uggly and all the XLR sockets are wired to relays and its a mess but don't worry this was made to get it running.

This is the signal flow in the first revision.

There is no price jet set. But I am working on it.
Looking for feedback.

Ardi.

 

[Bobby Baird]

Interesting I want to build a sum difference box. If the price is right.

 

[served]

What do you think.

Should it have a Stereo Pot for MS width?
Or it should be kept separated. So you have Mid and Side gain and you can boost two signals together?

 

[weiss]

What do you think.

Should it have a Stereo Pot for MS width?
Or it should be kept separated. So you have Mid and Side gain and you can boost two signals together?

i like what spl did with their vitalizer.. i think this was a stereo pot for the image width

 

[Bobby Baird]

Wouldn't you have more control over the image if the mono & sides had their own volume pot? I'm pretty sure the sides would have to be a stereo pot for level control. Is the send return for sum-difference processing, and the master loop for stereo processing?  Is the idea to have 2 stereo inputs and 2 switchable loops to have 2 different processing chains to compare? A-B signal processing? Mute of separate mono and sides is a must. How about buffered vu meters for mono and sides that would be killer.

 

[served]

Wouldn't you have more control over the image if the mono & sides had their own volume pot?

Correct, but it might not be that functional. You could have more fun with only one knob. But it might be worth a test.

Is the send return for sum-difference processing, and the master loop for stereo processing?

Correct!

Is the idea to have 2 stereo inputs and 2 switchable loops to have 2 different processing chains to compare?

2 stereo inputs are going to flow in the same audiopath. They just allow you to have different devices connected and select one or another.
Switchable loops will allow connecting 2 sets of different HW. So that you have different groups of gear you can work with.
Bypass to hear the difference.

Mute of separate mono and sides is a must.

Mute is integrated!

How about buffered vu meters for mono and sides that would be killer.

Metering sounds cool. I will have to see how easy it would be to integrate.

 

[Script]

Great idea -- Wayne's board at its full potential.

Metering sounds cool. I will have to see how easy it would be to integrate.

In MS processing you'd usually not add tons of gain -- it's more like working near unity gain (from In to Out) with makeup gain being finetuned, if necessary, on gear patched into the MS path. So I think metering is not really needed, unless it was for stereo correlation.

Crush'n'Blend comes to mind as another feature. Pots should be matched though, something like one out of ten maybe for stereo pots, or stepped.

Still have a spare of Wayne's boards, so I'm curious where this goes.

 

[ruairioflaherty]

I do any MS work in Digital these days even though I have MS on the analog mastering console.  I've never found the need for separate metering of the M and S.  I have it and never look at it, I make any decisions about the M and S relationship entirely by ear regardless of what I might see on meters.

So I guess that's a down vote for meters based on practical every day mastering experience (FWIW).

 

[served]

I do any MS work in Digital these days even though I have MS on the analog mastering console.  I've never found the need for separate metering of the M and S.  I have it and never look at it, I make any decisions about the M and S relationship entirely by ear regardless of what I might see on meters.

So I guess that's a down vote for meters based on practical every day mastering experience (FWIW).

Thats a good point.
What we are seeing at the moment is that the device can be really basic actually.
Just switch in some devices in the loop, and switch off to hear the difference. Everything else is just extra, that might make a difference but not much. So I am going to take Metering out. Not worth it and its not acutally usable.
There are some other exessive functions that could be left out, but they will stay as it depends on the person who is working with it. And flexibility is sometimes a great thing to have!

So lets make it a tool!
Something that gets the job done and is as straight forward as possible!

 

[SKJGProject]

count me in for 1 kit!

 

[simrfid]

You can count me in for 1 kit as well !

Do you think there would be a possibility to implement an insert point in the chain for an elliptical eq for example ?

 

[ruairioflaherty]

You can count me in for 1 kit as well !

Do you think there would be a possibility to implement an insert point in the chain for an elliptical eq for example ?

Why the need for an insert point?  This board coverts stereo to MS out > insert anything you want here > board converts back to stereo...

 

[simrfid]

Why the need for an insert point?  This board coverts stereo to MS out > insert anything you want here > board converts back to stereo...

Thank you very much for this answer Ruairi !  As you already understand, I'm a newbie in this world .... 

To explain my curious question, I think I just wanted  to let the insert planned (1 or 2) for "artistical" equalisation and dynamics .... and have a bypassable extra insert point for "vinyl mastering technical" needs  after the  conversion back to stereo (I'm trying to recap and modify a lathe).

But this can be surely done after the stereo out of this MS tool ...

 

[served]

Hi.

Boards and parts are in.
Backpanel is being produced.
Now I will work with the frontpanel.

Any ideas on the switches?
They should be iluminated ones.
Atleast on-off or on-on type single pole switch.
I will see what I can get my hands on but any suggestions are welcome!

 

[served]

Some pictures of the partial backpanel assembly.

 

[Bobby Baird]

Are top row of xlr for chain A, and bottom row for chain B? I'm liking all the relays. For front panel I find simple toggle switch for ab functions more tactile than push button or rotary. Looking good.

 

[served]

The backpanel is done so that First the Left or right is going to be in the high row, then there is going to be Side in the high row and then Left again.


I am going for the square illuminated pushbuttons.

At the moment I am thinking that the front panel should look like this:

 

[dipfrik]

i'am very interested, so count me in for 1 kit as well.

one short question:

1) Which way you choose for the MS Width control? I know Wayne has posted 4 ways in the past here:
http://www.proaudiodesignforum.com/forum/php/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=655

Thanks, Sven

 

[served]

Hi Sven

At the moment Width is going to be done like this
http://www.proaudiodesignforum.com/forum/php/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=459&p=6015#p6280

So you need to do the needed modifications on the Wayns board. But I will write a guide for this so its nothing difficult.
I just have to try through some different stereo Lin pots. Because it would be perfect if center positsion can be centre.

 

[served]

The first kit will cost 340€ with PP and transport (EU only, ask if from elsewere)


It will include:

2U 19" Black Enclosure
Custom backpanel with cutouts. (A sticker that marks the IO)
PCB for 18V PSU and toroidal transformer
Switching Powersupply for switching lights, relays.
Large IO PCB
Submini Relays
XLR sockets
10pcs Illuminated Square Switches for the Frontpanel. (yellow and Blue)
All the other small electronicsparts, diodes, resistors IC sockets capacitors.
Fasteners.
All the ICs that are needed. Except for Wayne board. (you can get them on your own or ask for price)

YOU HAVE TO DO:
*I will not drill the frontpanel. You have to do it. Then you can choose how to wire the Relays and what knobs you actually need. Its aluminium. Though I can do it if you say what you want.
*NO MS BOARDS! I don't have Wayns boards at the moment. So you have to order them from Wayne or use what you have got.
*No wire is included in the KIT.
*You have to get the potentiometers and knobs for them. Currently tested, and will be added to the KIT in the future.

Here is Wayns homepage for the MID SIDE Matrix boards.
http://www.ka-electronics.com/KAelectronics/MS_Matrix/MS_Matrix.htm


It will be an easy build and nothing difficult.
I will get all the parts in the future but for the first run thouse are the conditions.

Please send me an email for order: [email protected]

NB: There is only 5pcs in this run! Order it if you really want one! Lets build it through and fix the assembly instructions together. I will launch a new patch once its clear.