Modern music tech

[Tubetec]

I ran into a guy I knew from years back , he went away and learned the modern state of the art and is having measureable success now as a freelance live sound and recording engineer ,
He teaches music tech in the local school of music and is taking the degree course on the subject there himself ,

He was telling me the road setup he travels with , it basically consists of a Behringer X32 mixer , his Mac Book ,an audio interface ,Reaper and a case of decent mics .
He covers corporate events just the same ,
The PA system is hired in , he arrives with the X32 set up just how he likes it , its only a matter of him connecting up mics monitors and FOH ,
Its often small folk ensembles he does , so it only involves a handfull of mics .
I'm late to the party at this stage but I think I might ask to sit in on a few live gigs to get a sus on the Behringer desk ,

 

[totoxraymond]

Personnaly, i hate the behringers x32. They're quite successfull but i prefer the soundcraft SI impact, same pricerange but a lot more inside the box. (It actually has 64 tracks with full treatment).
And the ergonomics is way beyond imo.

Ymmv,

Thomas

 

[Tubetec]

Its the Presonus Studio live III we ended up getting for the new music venue/studio set up ,
I didnt even take it out of the box yet ,
Like all of these type units it also functions as an audio interface and includes on board recording to Sd card ,a live recording app and DAW software , so everything opens natively ,
Needs Win 10 or above on PC or 10.14 or above on Mac .

 

[SIXTYNINER]

I ran into a guy I knew from years back , he went away and learned the modern state of the art and is having measureable success now as a freelance live sound and recording engineer ,
He teaches music tech in the local school of music and is taking the degree course on the subject there himself ,

He was telling me the road setup he travels with , it basically consists of a Behringer X32 mixer , his Mac Book ,an audio interface ,Reaper and a case of decent mics .
He covers corporate events just the same ,
The PA system is hired in , he arrives with the X32 set up just how he likes it , its only a matter of him connecting up mics monitors and FOH ,
Its often small folk ensembles he does , so it only involves a handfull of mics .
I'm late to the party at this stage but I think I might ask to sit in on a few live gigs to get a sus on the Behringer desk ,

Behringer for "pro" ?

really ?

 

[totoxraymond]

There are many pros on tour with small to medium budget using behringer. It certainlybdoes the job if you can live with its limitations.

Thomas

 

[Tubetec]

Well , limitations indeed ,
I still prefer to have a discrete gain control per channel ,
It allows me address sudden changes in level from the stage very quickly , no need to think ,hop and skip through menu's , same can be said of channel monitor sends , I like to be able to reach out and touch ,
I notice these days with modern digital mixers it takes longer for the engineer to fix problematic sources that are feeding back for instance , course you can always engage an auto sucking EQ on your outs ,but yeah they suck .

Theres always been people out there who didnt like Behringer , in many cases it was cheap and cheerful knockoffs of Mackie that worked just as well for 1/2 the price , I agree many of the boxes Behringer put out are bullshit ,but this 'Behringer ?' is pure bias and doesnt hold water with me .

I dont see why in a live recording session ,where you have your audio interface and DAW and the digital mixer is purely a control surface what difference it makes to the recorded sound appart from room ambiences that get fed back via mic bleed .

Plenty of people looking for these kinds of arguments over in 'Gearsnobz' if you want it ,

 

[totoxraymond]

Well, in my experience, behringer doesn't last as long as Mackie product if you want to compare them. I have several Mackie mixers and powered speakers that have been abused for a long time and are still in working condition. Same cannot be said of berhingers.

As for the x32, i don't like the limitations in routing capabilities, limited effects slots forcing you to chose between a reverb and one more graphic EQ... The soundcraft has full processing on every channel and bus, plus one graphic eq for each bus / matrix / main. And always 4 processing effects. And it also have 64 channels rather than 32. (Still 32 preamps, but you can use a madi stagebox). In my opinion, it makes it the best of all consoles in this pricepoint. Although i didn't try the presonus ones. I used Behringer, Yamaha (the worst imo) and Allen & Heath.

Oh, and don't get close to those mixers without buttons that need ipads to work. It might get its place in a rehearsal environment, but should be kept far from any stage where you need quick and reliable controls.

Again, ymmv.

Thomas

 

[cyrano]

I kinda liked the Presonuses, because they're somewhat smaller than the X32. That is, until one landed on my desk with minor issues. According to Presonus, it was obsolete. They wouldn't even take it in for repair.

Tbh, it's impossible to repair. The boards are stacked so closely together, you can't test anything. And once you take out one board, it doesn't work anymore. Of course, Presonus didn't want to provide schematics either.

Compared to an X32, that has plenty of room inside for measuring & testing, the Presonus is a wonder of engineering, but the repairability is nonexistent. Behringer doesn't give out schematics either, but al least they'll look at older stuff. And somehow, the schematics always seem to leak.

We have four X32s (medium, the "producer" model) and our engineers love them. Had them for years and no repairs yet.

 

[Rusan]

I've ran an X32 Compact a few times per week for about two years now. It sounds okay but nevertheless still quite digital, and being the Compact model, you find yourself constantly switching between layers. It replaced a first-gen PreSonus StudioLive 2442 in the permanent installation, which sounded harsh, gritty, overly bright and digital in every sense of the words. But, while the X32 does sound better, the StudioLive was definitely far more ergonomic, AAMOF as easy as an analog desk to operate. And, I absolutely LOVED the native Capture and StudioOne software. Sadly, after about 10 years, some of the outputs became noisy and then failed altogether.

From what I understand, the latest Studio Live version has much better sound quality than the early ones, and of course now has on-board wi-fi and many additional tools and features. My advice was to get a new Allen & Heath or PreSonus, but those with the cash said someone told them the X32 was literally the best mixer ever built (face palm). Despite my more than three decades of experience playing in gigging bands and running live sound, I had no say in the matter; I was simply told to hook up the Behringer when it arrived, and get it up and running ASAP.

I still prefer to have a discrete gain control per channel ,
It allows me address sudden changes in level from the stage very quickly , no need to think ,hop and skip through menu's , same can be said of channel monitor sends , I like to be able to reach out and touch ,
I notice these days with modern digital mixers it takes longer for the engineer to fix problematic sources that are feeding back for instance , course you can always engage an auto sucking EQ on your outs ,but yeah they suck .

Yep, that's one of my biggest peeves with the X32, when dealing with either the Whispering Mic-O-Phobe who has a paralyzing fear of the mic and holds it 25" away, or else the Air Raid Siren with the 160dB voice who also naturally insists on eating the mic (usually while cupping it). In other words, situations where either the input preamp clips on the peaks or else diming the fader just ain't enough.

The PreSonus had dedicated input trim control knobs for every channel strip, while the X32 has exactly ONE shared between all the channels, plus a rotary encoder knob below the display screen that you can also use (if you can find it quickly enough). You must select the correct layer for that channel's bank if you happen to be in the wrong one, then the channel itself, and then select the preamp gain function or page, and then find the knob.

On the PreSonus, you could also, say, just reach up and roll off some low end to help deal with a chronic mic eater's proximity effect. Its Fat Channel had easily accessible, thoughtfully placed individual knobs for all the gain, dynamics and EQ for the selected channel. No matter where you were at, you just grabbed and tweaked it, whereas with the Behringer you have to individually select the EQ group function to access the high pass control.

The X32 is okay I guess, and I suppose it's a low-cost solution that does what it does pretty well. But, I just don't see why the world of pro sound has went so froot-loops crazy over it, like it was literally the greatest thing that's ever existed. Maybe I'm not seeing and hearing what they do, I dunno.

The Behringer does have far more bells, whistles and capabilities than the StudioLive did, but after living with it for a couple of years I still miss my old ride.

 

[Tubetec]

Thanks for the feedback

We have a medium sized Yamaha analog mixer also , so at least the option is there for engineers who want old style hands on control .
I was always happiest with Soundcraft back in the day , it was by far the most popular choice in venues here ,
As far as repairabillity goes , same story everwhere now , stuff simply isnt made to be repaired , you fuck it into the bin when it breaks ,buy new , keeps the crooked economic machine turning until the wheel falls off for good and then were all bollocksed

 

[Whoops]

Hi Tubetech,
I'm a professional Live Sound Engineer with many years of experience working as a Freelance with big acts, I do many Festivals and Tours in many countries.

The Behringer X32 is an outstanding console, it really blew up the market, it has a great set of features and some of them not even expensive and top of the range consoles have.
It's the best Behringer product ever released.

You have the normal channel strip with High Pass, Delay, Compressor, Gate and EQ. All of them are pretty good. The Channel EQ has 5 fully parametric bands.
You have 8 DCA's, 16 Mixbuses, 6 Matrix, 1 Mono/Center Mixbus and 1 stereo master bus.
You have also an 8 slot rack for effects, and you have a pretty good choice and range of effects and processors to add to the rack and you can insert them in any channel or any output.

The Matrixes, Mixbuses and Master have an EQ with 7 fully parametric bands.
All outputs have Polarity reverse and you can insert a delay

All EQ's from Channels or Buses have an RTA.

It's extremely easy to connect a router to wirelessly/Remotely control the console via a Tablet.
The official Midas/Behringer iPAD app for Remote control is Free and it's the best App for remote control ever released by any console manufacturer until today. Even in very expensive consoles the Apps are completely rubbish when compared to the X32 Mix App. You can even do the Delay Tap Tempo from the app.

It has also a very good Offline Editor for the console, where you can do your sessions before the Gig, or change settings from the last gig and prepare for the new gig.

You have also an USB interface in the console, that allows you to record a multitrack of 32 channels to your computer, or send 32 channels from your computer to the console.

It sounds pretty good also, and you have all this for a litle over 2000€, it's completely unbeatable for the price and really blew and changed the market
It's by far the Live Sound Console that sold more units ever, All Time record, and it's totally deserved and understandable.

And yes it's a Behringer product and it's a PRO product even though it has a very affordable price.
Many PRO acts tour with the X32, and many PRO engineers also tour with it, my self included.

There's also the MIDAS M32, which is the same console, same software, same circuit schematic, same apps, but it's built with higher quality components in another factory. It's also a bit more expensive.

 

[rock soderstrom]

Die Behringer X32 ist eine herausragende Konsole, sie hat den Markt wirklich in die Luft gesprengt, sie hat eine großartige Reihe von Funktionen und einige davon sind nicht einmal teuer und Spitzenkonsolen.
Es ist das beste Behringer-Produkt, das jemals veröffentlicht wurde.

That's the consensus here among all the professional sound engineers I know. These Behringer consoles seem to have nothing in common with Uli's earlier Mackie clones, which simply didn't work for long and were total junk. I would not have dared to use them at a paid professional event.

The new Behringer digital consoles, which you see everywhere, at all events of any size, are completely different. These things have revolutionized live sound. Behringer, hard to believe! I think the buyout of Midas is paying off here.

On the subject of Presonus digital mixers. I have been scanning the national second hand online plattforms for defective audio gear for a long time.

In fact, a disproportionately large number of defective Presonus digital consoles turn up over this period. This is not a good sign. I can't recall a single defective Behringer digital console offered (except for the old DDX3216, pre midas consoles, which seem to have problems with their displays very often.)

Just an observation

Edit: Whoops german is pretty good!

 

[totoxraymond]

Hi Tubetech,
I'm a professional Live Sound Engineer with many years of experience working as a Freelance with big acts, I do many Festivals and Tours in many countries.

The Behringer X32 is an outstanding console, it really blew up the market, it has a great set of features and some of them not even expensive and top of the range consoles have.
It's the best Behringer product ever released.

You have the normal channel strip with High Pass, Delay, Compressor, Gate and EQ. All of them are pretty good. The Channel EQ has 5 fully parametric bands.
You have 8 DCA's, 16 Mixbuses, 6 Matrix, 1 Mono/Center Mixbus and 1 stereo master bus.
You have also an 8 slot rack for effects, and you have a pretty good choice and range of effects and processors to add to the rack and you can insert them in any channel or any output.

The Matrixes, Mixbuses and Master have an EQ with 7 fully parametric bands.
All outputs have Polarity reverse and you can insert a delay

All EQ's from Channels or Buses have an RTA.

It's extremely easy to connect a router to wirelessly/Remotely control the console via a Tablet.
The official Midas/Behringer iPAD app for Remote control is Free and it's the best App for remote control ever released by any console manufacturer until today. Even in very expensive consoles the Apps are completely rubbish when compared to the X32 Mix App. You can even do the Delay Tap Tempo from the app.

It has also a very good Offline Editor for the console, where you can do your sessions before the Gig, or change settings from the last gig and prepare for the new gig.

You have also an USB interface in the console, that allows you to record a multitrack of 32 channels to your computer, or send 32 channels from your computer to the console.

It sounds pretty good also, and you have all this for a litle over 2000€, it's completely unbeatable for the price and really blew and changed the market
It's by far the Live Sound Console that sold more units ever, All Time record, and it's totally deserved and understandable.

And yes it's a Behringer product and it's a PRO product even though it has a very affordable price.
Many PRO acts tour with the X32, and many PRO engineers also tour with it, my self included.

There's also the MIDAS M32, which is the same console, same software, same circuit schematic, same apps, but it's built with higher quality components in another factory. It's also a bit more expensive.

You should give a try to the soundcraft si impact, it has even more features for a comparable price.

The behringer isn't bad but the soundcraft is better in many respects. I don't really understand why we don't see more of them, every sound engineer i met who tried the soundcraft agreed with me and turned their back to x32.

Also, the ergonomics is way better in my opinion, but that is a very subjective thing. What i like about thz soundcraft is that you don't relly on the touchscreen much, the channel strip is way more comprehensive with a knob for each setting directly accessible. In the midas/behringer, if you want to control compressor or gate settings beyond threshold, you have to dive into the touchscreen, not on the soundcraft. In a similar way, there are 12 knobs for the Eq section, not 3 knobs with 4 switches.
Also, you have 4 layers completely configurable. If i remember well, the behringer has fixed layers plus one configurable. So you have more freedom to decide which faders will be easily accessible.

In terms of feature, the soundcraft has 64 tracks rather than 32, one 31band graphic eq on EACH bus (LR, mono, 16 mixes and 4 matrices), 4 fxs which are basically an embedded lexicon mx 400 with their own dedicated sends / return, eq and comp on every bus, each mix can be mono or stereo...

Oh, and on behringer i could hear small clicks on the PA when changing gains settings in a silent room. Not so much on the soundcraft. Not that it really matters, couldn't hear them as soon as musicians were playing.

On a different subject, you should try the mixing station app, it can control behringers as well as soundcrafts and also allen&heath console and you can configure it to your own taste. Oh, and it's cross-platform.

Thomas

 

[Whoops]

You should give a try to the soundcraft si impact, it has even more features for a comparable price

I already used all the Live Consoles that exist, All.
The worst ones I might just use one time and never accept it again.

The Souncraft Si (all of the Si series) is completely crap and poorly designed that’s why it never got accepted by professionals.
I actually completely and clearly reject the Si series in my riders.
I understand why other Engineers do the same. It’s rubbish

Although Pro Engineers will accept an affordable console like the X32 or M32, the same engineers will not accept an Si because they feel it’s not “Pro”.

Only good digital consoles from Soundcraft are the Vi series.
Even though the Vi are the top of the line range the iPAD remote control App is miles worse then the X32 mix.

 

[totoxraymond]

Allright, i guess it's a matter of opinion. To me the soundcraft SI impact is way better than the x32.

Ymmv

Thomas

 

[Whoops]

Allright, i guess it's a matter of opinion. To me the soundcraft SI impact is way better than the x32.

Ymmv

Thomas

Off course I totally respect your opinion, although most engineers would not agree with you.
The “crowd” would not prefer an Si over an x32/M32

And there’s always many valid and solid reasons when most of the people prefer one console over another one

 

[Tubetec]

Its been a very informative post ,many thanks for all the perspectives ,
I did mention to the supplier in advance that I wanted the Behringer , in the end they supplied the PreSonus and promised to swap it over if it was unsuitable .
I take the point that the Behringer is a well proven workhorse with rock solid reliabillity that even top engineers are familiar with .

None of these newer digital desks have a discrete input gain per channel as far as I can see ,
its all menus and layers ,
Then again theres no reason you cant suplement it with a nice all analog front end ,

The supplier also sent over a Yamaha MG series , 20 channel frame , Its way overkill for what I need , I might have to get him to swap it over for the SSL SiX instead and with the addditon of a few extra channels of mic pre in the form of the model S usb interface , more than enough for my needs. Guest engineers can use the Pre-Sonus if they want ,

 

[BIASKING]

Thumbs up on the M32.
I've mixed the same Grammy Award winning act live for the last 33 years. "Back in the day" my rider call was the Midas Heritage with 2 full racks of outboard. My first digital console was the Yamaha PM1D. I still carry the my old CF flash card with the PC adapter. I've used almost everything available since 1990, analog & digital, from Soundcraft & Presonus level to DiGiCo & SSL DIgital and John McBride's ATI-which was great!. The M32 is still my favorite.
My rider call is now a Midas M32 and I couldn't be happier. I only need 14 inputs for the show so the 32 CH limit isn't an issue. The comps, gates & FX are very good.
If no M32 is available I'll gladly accept a Behringer X32. The workflow is the best for my work flow. I understand how it may not suit everyone.
Final note:
I can't hear any sonic difference between the X32 & the M32, but I really like the better faders, form factor and fit & finish of the M.

 

[Whoops]

My first digital console was the Yamaha PM1D.

I started already in the PM5D era.
Amazingly enough the PM5D still sounds great today, actually it still sounds better to me than any modern Yamanha equiped with Tio or Rio stageboxes.

I still carry the my old CF flash card with the PC adapter.

I also used to bring my CF card with PCMIA adapter, although it was also easy to import sessions from the computer via the USB connection.

I stopped accepting the PM5D because there’s no app to control it remotely with a tablet and I don’t work without it nowadays

The M32 is still my favorite.
My rider call is now a Midas M32 and I couldn't be happier.

It’s my favorite also for acts that use less than 32 inputs and that don’t need more than 12 AUX/Mixbuses for stage monitoring

My rider since 3 years ago also o Pt calls for an X32/M32, I actually don’t make a distinction between them.
Any is good to me.
I love that I have all the sessions for my artists, some of them with FOH+Monitors and I don’t have to start from scratch every gig the work that was already well done in the previous gigs.

I have an X32 myself and on the limit if they have a console I don’t like I will bring my own console.

The workflow is the best for my work flow.

For me also, it’s very fast and easy to work with. Love also the offline, the iPAD remote control app and the RTA in every EQ and on the tablet also

I understand how it may not suit everyone.

My only colleagues that don’t accept it are towards the more “snob” genre and they refuse it mostly because of the Behringer name.

Final note:
I can't hear any sonic difference between the X32 & the M32, but I really like the better faders, form factor and fit & finish of the M.

I also never heard any sound difference , but the software and the summing engine is the same.
Mic Pres and converters have the same circuit schematic although the M32 uses for the same circuit better electronic components, as some lower noise OpAmps and such. Although the noise levels in the X32 are already pretty low.

I also don’t care much about the sound difference between the X32 and M32 because I always bring my stage boxes, the nice thing about the protocol in these consoles is that with the AES50 protocol you can use the Midas Pro stageboxes. I have 2x Midas Pro DL153 stage boxes and the Mic Pres, A/D D/A converters and Clock are really good, which improves the overall sound quality.

You can even use the optional DANTE card for the X32/M32 and then you can have any DANTE device as a front end, like for example the Focusrite RED range of units

 

[amplexus]

That's the consensus here among all the professional sound engineers I know. These Behringer consoles seem to have nothing in common with Uli's earlier Mackie clones, which simply didn't work for long and were total junk. I would not have dared to use them at a paid professional event.

The new Behringer digital consoles, which you see everywhere, at all events of any size, are completely different. These things have revolutionized live sound. Behringer, hard to believe! I think the buyout of Midas is paying off here.

My recollection (based on some whisperings and heresay) is the big reason the X32 did so well is because it was already in the pipeline at Midas when Uli bought them, and the funds to finish development were allocated to that team with the stipulation that the desk would be released as a Berhinger branded product first to establish the model in their name, then the 'uprated' M32 would come later.

It was a great mixer explicitly because it was a Midas spec'd and designed console first and foremost.

That said- while it's certainly well entrenched, there are a dozen better sounding, more ergonomic (no touchscreen??? commahhhhn), and better built desks out there that occupy a similar price point, and while it may be standard fare in live sound now it would be last on my list of desks to buy for my personal rig for a great many reasons.

For the record, I started mixing live sound in 1996, and my first two digital console experiences were the Spirit 328, and a Mackie D8B... Most recently got to play a bit with a Yamaha Rivage PM10 system... So i've had my hands on most of what's out there- from the garbage right on up!