NEED RESEARCH HELP FOR AN EXPERIMENT! (got stuck)

[GeorgeToledo]

I remember abbey arguing with me for pages about proximity effect and flipping polarity when monitoring in headphones. A few weeks ago I stumbled on a thread years prior where he was apologizing to someone else for doing the same thing.

Anyway, I had reported Thor’s post because I think it’s somewhat bigoted, stereotype driven, and racist. I expressed to John that I think it was bound to lead the thread down the toilet.

Since it has been left up I decided to address it.

That’s what has likely attracted the moderation to the thread.

I think it’s pretty weird how much editing the recent Braunbuch stuff got, stuff being deleted that is obviously not against forum rules. And yet you can paint an entire country with as broad of a brush as possible, make no effort to be even handed, and somehow it’s not bigotry.

Someone could say that German mic history originally revolved around taking the US condenser technology and applying it for the glorification of the Nazis, to make Hitler sound impressive, and as part of the Nazi propaganda effort surrounding the 1936 Olympics. It would be a gross oversimplification, but probably more accurate than Thor’s post. The Nazi Olympics -1936 Berlin Olympic Games

And why was it against forum rules to acknowledge the link between the Nazis and German condenser mic development? Because someone here needs to defend the Nazis? Or Neumann? Yet a post can remain up that stereotypes the Chinese? I don’t get it.

 

[JohnRoberts]

I decided not to lock or delete posts from this thread, but some people are testing my decision.
===
Let's focus more about objective physical objects like microphones and less about what each other "think".

JR

 

[abbey road d enfer]

Typical reply from you whenever the discussion doesn't go in a direction you'd like it to.

When the discussion goes into China vs. the rest of te world or similar, I admit I don't like it, not only personally, because it's a waste of time, but also as an admin.

The OP's question is complex, and can't be answered by quoting a specific formula from a favorite theory book.

Did I say otherwise?

Like it or not, half of the stuff here has to do with marketing and non-technical misconceptions.

Has you read my posts, you may have discerned it's my opinon too, but not only that.

I'll refrain from replying further in this thread as i know what discussing with you looks like.

Are you mistaking me for someone else?

It seems to me you will have to ban me eventually from this forum, as you can't seem to differentiate between healthy discussion and your personal preferences. Which is unfortunate for you as an admin. I'll do you a favor and invite @JohnRoberts to threaten to close the thread, so you don't have to.

You seem to want to verify "I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member.".
Note that I did not siuggest censoring or banning or whatever violent action. I just suggested that the discussion was taking an unconstructive turn.

 

[abbey road d enfer]

Anyway, I had reported Thor’s post because I think it’s somewhat bigoted, stereotype driven, and racist. I expressed to John that I think it was bound to lead the thread down the toilet.

Aah, OK, I understand now; you thought my post was addressed to you. No, it wasn't. It came after Thor's comment, but I don't want to confront Thor anymore. Waste of time. He always want to have the last word, even if it's goodbye I quit.

Since it has been left up I decided to address it.

Deleting one of Thor's post is exposing oneself to endless discussions.

That’s what has likely attracted the moderation to the thread.

Simply, NO. You totally misunderstood.

I remember abbey arguing with me for pages about proximity effect and flipping polarity when monitoring in headphones. A few weeks ago I stumbled on a thread years prior where he was apologizing to someone else for doing the same thing.

Care to remind me the threads you're mentioning? I'll be happy to apologize if I realize I was wrong.

 

[GeorgeToledo]

Aah, OK, I understand now; you thought my post was addressed to you. No, it wasn't. It came after Thor's comment, but I don't want to confront Thor anymore. Waste of time. He always want to have the last word, even if it's goodbye I quit.

Deleting one of Thor's post is exposing oneself to endless discussions.

Simply, NO. You totally misunderstood.

Care to remind me the threads you're mentioning? I'll be happy to apologize if I realize I was wrong.

Got it. Points well taken.

Let’s just move forward.

 

[GeorgeToledo]

I think that answering a technical question on a non-technical basis is just off topic to start with. A half ass analysis of socio-economic forces that reads as an excuse for a bigoted diatribe should rightly get deleted quickly.

 

[thor.zmt]

797 made mics for decades that were not clones of existing designs.

George, I know the 797, 798 Factories in Peking. They were set up by East Germany. I visited them in the 00's.

“Without understanding what is being copied or made.”

Nope, not at all. I have done business in China for many years.

And “chinese copy” is a “technical term”?

Yes, it is.

Definition of CHINESE COPY

There were many US mic modders in the 90s who would use mics based on k67 capsules, and not correct the top end. It is not exclusive to China at all, and is an idea that was trendy at the time some of the first Chinese condensers started getting distributed in the US.

Modders are not manufacturers or designers

You are very wrong to think that these companies don’t have test equipment, don’t know how to do tests, and don’t know how things work.

I have visited many factories in China and I am actually right. On all I have written.

Thor

 

[thor.zmt]

I would simarize that most cheap OEM mics are replicas of existing stuff mashed up together without thinking which part plays what role. There is rarely serious issue with any particular component but how they are used.

The whole hell breaks lose when uneducated engineers try to come up with their own design like with BM800, or Apex 460. Everything that could go wrong will go wrong like with these two. And again it wasn't the parts necessarily but how they were used.

This describes accurately the MIC syndrome I referenced.

Thor

 

[thor.zmt]

- 797 audio is a chinese military contractor, and makes parts for their space program. Their capsules are of exceptional quality, and costed 30$ a piece last time i bought from them. Off course it might just happen you still don't like how they sound, and that's ok.

They are the ones I refer to as "originals" chinese manufacturing of foreign designs on a foreign line.

- Peluso is an American company

Are they a US Office with their products OEM'ed in China or do they actually buy OEM manufactured in China? Or do they use MIC core parts?

- Shure is a magnificent company that has made remarkable microphones throughout the years, keeps pushing the boundaries with new concepts all the time, and has some quite inexpensive microphones. But they don't have 47 number on any of those mics, and none of the mics look like u87. So an average Joe would rather buy a rubbish mic from Peluso than from Shure.

That again underscores the point I made. Shure does have some excellent mic's though they need to applied with care. There not too many I would use for recording, except on very specific applications.

Thor

 

[thor.zmt]

Hello guys! So all we know problems of cheap microphones, but why is it so? I recently got this questions and got stuck on them, so I think this is the best place to ask them.

Ok, after going to the root cause in my first reply and causing more kerfuffle than a Ukrainian drone operator dropping a kamikaze drone into the open hatch of a tank and being accused of bing off topic, shall I address the individual points.

1) Why on a piece of paper can the Frequency Response, Diaphragm Size and Material of two microphones be almost the same, but in reality they sound completely different?

The MOST LIKELY answer if we talk specific the capsule, is that one is a copy of the other but made with slightly different material, in reality measures differently and thus sound differently. With a full microphone add in electronics and mechanics. Make the metal of the case thinner, resonances will shift. Change the basket slightly, big measured and sonic change.

2) Why are cheap microphones so sensitive to sibilants?

Sibilants are emphasised by uneven frequency response that has a lift in this region. Some electronics have nonlinear effects that make this worse.

3) Why do cheap microphones have very bad high frequencies, especially if you try to interact with them in any way?

Construction that copied something potentially good and then used it incorrectly or cheapened the construction excessively.

4) Why are cheap microphones insensitive to low frequency transients?
7) Why are cheap microphones less sensitive to low frequencies?

Again, poor construction, poor application.

6) Why do cheap microphones have high levels of self-noise?

Badly copied electronics that have been modified badly.

8) What are DETAILS (I mean what is it), what is responsible for capturing those details and why do cheap diaphragms record few of these "DETAILS" of the source? (THE MOST IMPORTANT QUESTION)

Most likely the film on the capsule is thicker or the wrong spec. I had one case where I had a factory copy a magnetic planar diaphragm from an actual item. They used the wrong film and the result was garbage. We had a major debate about this. The second fact0ry did the same. The original factory was expensive and japanese. The supplier was retained.

9) If small diaphragm are more sensitive to transients, does it mean that as smaller diaphragm as it more sensitive to transients? The same related to for large diaphragm microphones which are more sensitive to details?

I don't feel large capsules lack detail. In theory smaller capsules have better HF but worse SNR.

10) Why do some cheap mics have a limited frequency range? And how can it have a limited range if the manufacturer writes that the range is 20-20kHz?

Because the manufacturer made a cheap version of the real thing and never measured it and just copied the spec from the original. He may even have copied from another manufacturer who too copied badly...

11) What is responsible for forming microphone frequency response, why certain microphones have certain frequency response?

A microphone is an electromechanical system with surprising complexity. IF it is well understood and correctly manufactured the results are predictable, but it is difficult, takes design effort and care in manufacturing. That limits how cheap it can be made.

To make it still cheaper means you need to compromise something. If the system is well understood and care is taken, it is possible to still get good results. Do it without understanding and you get random results, it may be fine. It may be bad. And one batch of items turned out great, the next you were changed very slightly and the result is a total disaster.

Again, much of this ties into my original post.

Thor

 

[GeorgeToledo]

and I am actually right. On all I have written.

Thor

Oh, ok then. I’ll take it under advisement.

 

[Marik]

I didn't write they had "problems", just that considering the basic laws of physics at work, i.e. mechanical resonance and smaller capacitance, SDC's have a higher LF cut-off frequency than LDC's. Of course there are exceptions and many possible tricks.
Like with loudspeakers, it is quite possible to have a 5" speaker having the same LF cut-off than a 15", but at the cost of several other parameters.

That would be important to make a couple clarifications here:
1. We need to define we are talking about cardioid capsules because even a simple 1/4" true pressure omni capsule can easily go down to 2-4Hz--their low end response entirely depends on the size of the vent hole. They just work as a barometer.
2. It is also important to compare similar designs, i.e. SD vented against LD vented, or SD back diaphragm (very few SDC designs) against LD back diaphragm (most of the LDC designs). When we compare a vented SD against back diaphragm LD they will have completely different properties, proximity effect, polar and other responses.

Best, M

 

[amplexus]

Peluso is a US located manufacturer- they do have metalwork done in China for the capsules (backplates, rings) but they build and test in the US with US made mylar, and their mic assembly is all done in the US. John has stated repeatedly however that his products are not clones- he uses modern approaches to go after the desired sound.

KingKorg is right about many things, but his information about Peluso is more often inaccurate than not.

ie: here is my own personal Peluso mic with John's K47 style capsule in a 47/49 style circuit... Clearly not a 32mm backplate, and I dunno about you but it doesn't look like a K67 style hole pattern... I have had occasion to have an OG '50's M49 across my bench (which was... in a word.. magnificent), and side by side with the P49, the Peluso definitely held it's own.

I've gone through a half dozen Peluso capsules of varying types and never, ever, have i seen a wrinkled diaphragm.

Are they a US Office with their products OEM'ed in China or do they actually buy OEM manufactured in China? Or do they use MIC core parts?

 

[kingkorg]

Peluso is a US located manufacturer- they do have metalwork done in China for the capsules (backplates, rings) but they build and test in the US with US made mylar, and their mic assembly is all done in the US. John has stated repeatedly however that his products are not clones- he uses modern approaches to go after the desired sound.

KingKorg is right about many things, but his information about Peluso is more often inaccurate than not.

ie: here is my own personal Peluso mic with John's K47 style capsule in a 47/49 style circuit... Clearly not a 32mm backplate, and I dunno about you but it doesn't look like a K67 style hole pattern... I have had occasion to have an OG '50's M49 across my bench (which was... in a word.. magnificent), and side by side with the P49, the Peluso definitely held it's own.

I've gone through a half dozen Peluso capsules of varying types and never, ever, have i seen a wrinkled diaphragm.


View attachment 115677

You are lucky, you have a 10$ k47 backplate in that thing, unlike this one that has 32mm k67. Both are cheap china OEM capsules, and not Peluso made no matter how much you want to believe it. Many reports of wrinkled diaphragms just on this forum. Yes you might like how they sound, but these are 300$ mics at best. You might have the right capsule, but i don't know what that sub miniature tube is doing in a k47 based mic and 47 in the name of it. Which brings me back to my point they either don't know what they are doing or they hope no one will notice.

 

[amplexus]

You are lucky, you have a 10$ k47 backplate in that thing, unlike this one that has 32mm k67. Both are cheap china OEM capsules, and not Peluso made no matter how much you want to believe it. Many reports of wrinkled diaphragms just on this forum. Yes you might like how they sound, but these are 300$ mics at best. You might have the right capsule, but i don't know what that sub miniature tube is doing in a k47 based mic and 47 in the name of it. Which brings me back to my point they either don't know what they are doing or they hope no one will notice.

Ah yes, the same two photos again.

You suggest John is not making his capsules in the US, but OEMing them when I have actually seen the shop where he assembles the capsules, as well as had several client's capsules sent to him for reskinning and rebuilding that he sure wasn't sending to China. I have had a casual business relationship with Peluso for many years now. While i'm not privy to all the details of his business, I know enough to know that many of your claims can be safely ignored when it comes to their products.

 

[kingkorg]

Ah yes, the same two photos again.

You suggest John is not making his capsules in the US, but OEMing them when I have actually seen the shop where he assembles the capsules, as well as had several client's capsules sent to him for reskinning and rebuilding that he sure wasn't sending to China. I have had a casual business relationship with Peluso for many years now. While i'm not privy to all the details of his business, I know enough to know that many of your claims can be safely ignored when it comes to their products.

Are you kidding me? I am talking about backplates, which are 90% of the sound. You said yourself you can't tell the diference between k47 and k67 backplate pattern. I know exactly where he sources them and i posted an image of a mic i repaired myself. In addition the mic i received uses 1Gig grid resistor which again points to the fact he's using wrong parts. That 2247 mic has also stock china transformer found in Apex mics, but i didn't care to take a picture. What is the grid resistor value in your mic?

I have no relationship with Peluso, don't you think it could be you have a bias towards his products as you say yourself you two have business relationship?

The point is not to bash Peluso, but the fact Shure and many others have remarkable microphones in 500-1000$ range, they developed and produced from scratch, every part of it.

Peluso sells frankenmics for thousends of dollars range using outsorced parts, PSUs, from known China manufacturer, and uses wrong parts in wrong place IMHO. They might sound remarkable, just like 200$ Avantone rebrand on Taylor Swift's voice.

This is same exact 32mm capsule used in cheapest possible microphones, sold for 30$ pretty much everywhere. The one people remove from Apex 460.

https://www.frontendaudio.com/peluso-cek-89-microphone-capsule/
This is stock OEM thick ribbon motor found in many China ribbons which i replaced myself for a thinner, proper ribbon. It also uses stock cheapo transformer. It's a 700$ rebrand of a chinese 70$ mic.


And an image from Peluso website of their exploded sdc capsule, which is stock chinse 10$ 7.5$ capsule(found quotation), with typical design just like MXL 603. And an image from the chinese supplier that makes them whom sold the same exact SDC capsules to me. I really don't know what more you would like as a proof. I have plenty more, but i'm not into causing international scandal. Cheers.



https://www.soundpure.com/p/peluso-p28-omni-microphone-capsule-matched-pair/2268

 

[Whoops]

Someone could say that German mic history originally revolved around taking the US condenser technology and applying it for the glorification of the Nazis, to make Hitler sound impressive, and as part of the Nazi propaganda effort surrounding the 1936 Olympics. It would be a gross oversimplification, but probably more accurate than Thor’s post. The Nazi Olympics -1936 Berlin Olympic Games

You showed a great example of the Godwin's Law

"Godwin's law, short for Godwin's law (or rule) of Nazi analogies,[1] is an Internet adage asserting that as an online discussion grows longer (regardless of topic or scope), the probability of a comparison to Nazis or Adolf Hitler approaches"

"many newsgroups and other Internet discussion forums have a tradition that, when a Hitler comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever made the comparison loses whatever debate is in progress."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

Anyway, I had reported Thor’s post because I think it’s somewhat bigoted, stereotype driven, and racist. I expressed to John that I think it was bound to lead the thread down the toilet.

Many people expressed important things in this thread, and different points of view which is great.

Some posts were very technical, other's were historic and in the case of Thor's he explained from an economics point of view, and although it's generalized and simplified, because of course this is not an economics degree but just one post, what he said is true and explains very well the Cut Costing trend in products worldwide and the reasons why we live in an age of Low quality products that don't last.

I have nothing against China or the Chinese, I'm actually also a user of economic Chinese mics,
but Thor is mostly correct in is post.
There's of course exceptions both in China and in the West, there's many quality products from China and there's many crap products in the West, but what Thor said happened and it's happening.

Nothing wrong with his post, and it was quite relevant like many others in this thread.
It was just a different point of view of the same subject, and although it doesn't explain all of it, neither it can be applied to all brands, it explains a lot.
There was nothing racist of what we wrote, and I can find factual examples of companies and products for each of his sentences.

You should respect more other's peoples opinions, points of view and knowledge.

For me you were disrespectful and lost the "debate", which should just be a conversation

 

[Whoops]

You suggest John is not making his capsules in the US, but OEMing them when I have actually seen the shop where he assembles the capsules

What Kingkorg explained and something that is really well known is that Peluso, assembles capsules in the US using individual cheap parts for the capsules outsourced from China.

Of course that alone is not a statement saying the mics will not sound good,
I have many 100€ Chinese mics that sound Great and use them professionally all the time,
but Peluso mics don't cost 100€...

 

[GeorgeToledo]

You showed a great example of the Godwin's Law

"Godwin's law, short for Godwin's law (or rule) of Nazi analogies,[1] is an Internet adage asserting that as an online discussion grows longer (regardless of topic or scope), the probability of a comparison to Nazis or Adolf Hitler approaches"

"many newsgroups and other Internet discussion forums have a tradition that, when a Hitler comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever made the comparison loses whatever debate is in progress."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law


Many people expressed important things in this thread, and different points of view which is great.

Some posts were very technical, other's were historic and in the case of Thor's he explained from an economics point of view, and although it's generalized and simplified, because of course this is not an economics degree but just one post, what he said is true and explains very well the Cut Costing trend in products worldwide and the reasons why we live in an age of Low quality products that don't last.

I have nothing against China or the Chinese, I'm actually also a user of economic Chinese mics,
but Thor is mostly correct in is post.
There's of course exceptions both in China and in the West, there's many quality products from China and there's many crap products in the West, but what Thor said happened and it's happening.

Nothing wrong with his post, and it was quite relevant like many others in this thread.
It was just a different point of view of the same subject, and although it doesn't explain all of it, neither it can be applied to all brands, it explains a lot.
There was nothing racist of what we wrote, and I can find factual examples of companies and products for each of his sentences.

You should respect more other's peoples opinions, points of view and knowledge.

For me you were disrespectful and lost the "debate", which should just be a conversation

First off, there’s no “debate”.

Secondly, I think you’re wrong for all of the reasons I have already written in response to Thor.

Your response if fully useless meta garbage of no value to the original poster’s question, but I’m glad you were able to give me your two cents.

 

[Whoops]

Your response if fully useless meta garbage

It's utterly interesting analyzing that you seem to value your opinion really high and above everyone else, narrowing just all the possible points of view to just your own, considering all the others as "garbage".

An Heliocentric view of the world just harms who practices it, so no big deal, but being continually disrespectful towards other members here is not nice an it's actually the opposite of what this community represents.

I was not disrespectful to you in any way, neither I will be.

From time to time a new members shows up, where his ratio between number of posts and offending posts/fights started is quite high.
Some people are remarkably good at it, an in your case for the small number of posts you have and the amount of fights you start I have to admit that you are extremely good at it.
So you won the Trophy, congrats you're number 1