Newbie builds U87 clone

[poctop]

As I offered before, I'm willing to do a test here. I doubt you'll take me up on it.

you are correct , basically you shot the door yourlself when you started insulting our fellow member with your comments likes"
the blind leading the blind"  that has been erased by Ethan for your own good , and also when you started  telling everyone the the AMI transformer was right and everybody was else was wrong and try to confuse everyone again , so as said your off my books,
enough said.

Dan,

 

[Biasrocks]

you are correct , basically you shot the door yourlself when you started insulting our fellow member with your comments likes"
the blind leading the blind"  that has been erased by Ethan for your own good , and also when you started  telling everyone the the AMI transformer was right and everybody was else was wrong and try to confuse everyone again.

Dan,

Wow, you obviously can't give it up huh.

That particular comment was a bit harsh and I went back and deleted it myself, after additional information and clarification was offered. I doubt Ethan could be bothered to delete something like that.

I offered real information to help people with their builds. I suggested using  the DCR reading and ignore the datasheet, that's clear if you go back and read my posts.

You don't like me, I get it. It's clearly time to get over it and put aside your conspiracy theories.

I will not defend myself further against your false assertions.

Regards,
Mark

 

[Biasrocks]

Biasrocks.
I really encourage you to build one and try it out, i was not impressed at all by samples we hear over the web.
However i ended deeply impressed on how good it sounds, im not saying it sounds the same it just cant be.
we are not using same caps and transformers are not the same, but sound is the same ballpark.

comparing originals to diy clones is like comparing apples and oranges, despite the fact that they are the same circuit.

Cool, your response is appreciated 3nity.  I'm covered for U87's at the moment, but I won't rule it out at some point as it seems like a good piece of kit. I can always use more utility mics and I love how U87's sound on close miced toms.

Curious which capsule, transformer & FET did you go with?

Regards,
Mark

 

[chunger]

Close mics for drums is the main reason I'm encouraged by this project and the reasonable overall reasonable cost (in comparison to other DIY tube mic projects).  I can choose the FET to optimize for headroom as opposed to output and specialize them.  At $1500-$3000 each for a Neumann option, it is out of reach for close mic'ing a kit, but this project is:

$170 body
$100 transformer
$200 capsule
$60 electronic components
$35 pcb's

~$565.00 total cost

Sennheiser 421 is ~$380 in comparison for similar app.  Shave $70 off of that if you go with a BM600 or other lower cost donor body.

 

[3nity]

Chunger pretty sure one can build it for. Less.
I paid 25$ for my cinemag transfo.

 

[chunger]

oops. . . I forgot to add in the $100 for that T13 in my cost. . . skews the results a bit in the wrong direction, but still.  That's not going "cheap" on any parts.  Sorry, we're not really supposed to total out the project costs for DIY, are we?

 

[tskguy]

Ha it seems we have anther Klaus on our hands. Bottom line is this, these mikes regardless of components will sound different from the originals because they are new! Even if you throw in a old original skinned Neumann capsule it will sound different then vintage mic. 44.1 96k whatever everyone's opinion will be different. And anyone claiming there original 87 is better is full of it. It may sound better to you but to me it may sound like complete poo. Dan did an amazing job recreating this great circuit and if you haven't built one its tuff to listen to that self proclaimed experts opinion.
Now go build some mics and record some damn music.

 

[Biasrocks]

Bottom line is this, these mikes regardless of components will sound different from the originals because they are new! Even if you throw in a old original skinned Neumann capsule it will sound different then vintage mic. 44.1 96k whatever everyone's opinion will be different. And anyone claiming there original 87 is better is full of it. It may sound better to you but to me it may sound like complete poo to me. Dan did an amazing job recreating this great circuit and if you haven't built one its tuff to listen to that self proclaimed experts opinion.

Ah, okay.  :

How much disinformation do you care to spread? This is an electronics forum, not gearslutz.

Personal attacks are always classy.

I have no horse in this race, that obviously doesn't apply to you based on your above comments.

I could care a less if you think you've got the real deal.

The offer is still open to do a proper sound comparison.

Regards,
Mark

 

[desol]

It's been proven in critical, professional listening circles(not internet heresay) that the vast majority of clones do not sound exactly like the Neumann capsule...despite how much an individual needs to disagree. Listening itself is a subjective thing, so there will always be arguments. And yes, i'm another Klaus...i respected his unwillingness to bend to common heresay and retain objective standards. I think people are mistaking this approach to qualification, with a personal attack against their own efforts. Such is life...

I agree with Mark and i don't see his posts as being out of line. If your attempting to prove that your knock off capsule sounds exactly like the 'age old Neumann secret, you'll have many more opponents other than Mark to convince....big, bad professionals who can hear a knat scratch his balls. Both Thiersch and more importantly, Gefell make a great sounding capsule, but as is the case you cannot buy a Gefell capsule.

A large majority of the sound of the mic is in the capsule...like it, or lump it.

I just wanted to post as it's silly to see people making personal attacks, when the real point is to make a good sounding kit.

 

[poctop]

OK guys , Since i am not the kind of guy that stays mad for a long time and would not like to pollute this thread any longer ,

i really propose that if Biasrock is interested in this project and could do some nice sound comparison that will benefit everyone as per our common curiousity,

it is this time of the year where forgiveness is the way to go ,  i am even offering biasrock a free set of boards if he is interested to build the project and report on his findings , this is a sharing forum,  and all this was my only intent when recreating this fun circuit to learn of electronics for everyone ,  i understand that critisisme is always a good thing it only makes us better t what we do ,

all the best  for evreyone  ,

Sincerly Dany,

 

[Matador]

I don't remember anywhere where Poctop or anyone else sold this as a Neumann U87 Sonic Replacement...it's a Neumann U87 Clone Circuit.

Five different Neumann's from the same era don't even sound the same.  There's too many variables:  capsule construction, diaphragm tensioning, capacitor tolerance, JFET tolerance, transformer tolerance, etc, etc.

 

[Spencerleehorton]

Hi guys,

I will keep this on comments about the topic.

I have built several different U87s with various different transformers, capsules, 60m vs 68m and have found a fairly good combination.

RK-87 capsule - sounds pretty good for the money
Peluso P-T87 transformer - seems to have the best output
60Meg resistors seem to have a flatter response than putting in the 68Meg which make it have a bit more top, maybe some people will like this.

The particular pair i have that has the above in them work great as drum overheads.
I do have another 4 versions which i use on the toms that use a slightly darker capsule and in these i have them set to cardioid with the 51pf on the back capsule connection (RK-7 RK-47)

For snare drum im using a sennheiser 609 which sounds amazing along size a modded golden age R1 ribbon mic and a sm57.

Kick drum has a beta 52 in the hole, 8" sub kick, and ive nearly finished the U47FET.

just thought i'd share the info.

regards

Spence.

 

[0dbfs]

I often hear comments that the capsule is perhaps 90% of the "Sound" and I would agree that it is obviously significant.

For a point of reference as to what this last 10% might embody from a technically-objective and sonically-subjective standpoint please consider these [very different] mic's from the same mfg that use the "same" capsules:

Neumann's K47: The M49, U47, FET47, TLM49, TLM149, M249, M147, M149, & U497.
Neumann's K67: U87, U87ai, U67, TLM67, M269 C.

Cheers,
jb

 

[tskguy]

Hi all,

I want to say that I am very sorry if anyone took my statements as personal attacks. I simply wanted to point out that everyone has differing opinions.
Eric

 

[bernbrue]

Now that is funny,
almost every year around November/December people are on the edge to start an argument about clones, the real deal, sonic differences, being as close to the original as possible etc...... Let people build what they like to build. Let people decide on their own, how good their builds are and the most important of all. "Just don´t air yourself too much".
regards
Bernd

 

[atticmike]

Hi all,

I want to say that I am very sorry if anyone took my statements as personal attacks. I simply wanted to point out that everyone has differing opinions.
Eric

Microphones are so damn much about taste and personal preferences that emerged from listening to records your whole damn life.  And as everybody said before, by the moment you reskin the "original" u87 capsule, it'll sound to audiophiles completely different. Many u87 owners that got to replace the capsule itself chose John's with being quite impressed by its closeness to the original sound and yet yielding a tad more high end which they prefer over the original. I for example am so impressed how close Erics capsule gets to the original sound. By the moment I heard a few samples of his capsule in this build, I was impressed beyond any excitement that I've had in microphones for the past 5 years at least. It's got the same body, I mean seriously, the mids are so close to the original, I almost couldn't make out the difference and on top of that yet a bit more high end. Now, if I was in a shop testing Eric's capsule with this build against the current u87ai, I'd vouch 100% for Erics and pops build. Of course it does not sound like the original, but so doesn't the current Neumann model either.  And the end, as I've already mentioned before, I'd yet prefer erics capsule in pops build than getting the old classic.

 

[zayance]

Now that is funny,
almost every year around November/December people are on the edge to start an argument about clones, the real deal, sonic differences, being as close to the original as possible etc...... Let people build what they like to build. Let people decide on their own, how good their builds are and the most important of all. "Just don´t air yourself too much".
regards
Bernd

+1

 

[Biasrocks]

I for example am so impressed how close Erics capsule gets to the original sound. By the moment I heard a few samples of his capsule in this build, I was impressed beyond any excitement that I've had in microphones for the past 5 years at least. It's got the same body, I mean seriously, the mids are so close to the original, I almost couldn't make out the difference and on top of that yet a bit more high end.

Cool, let's get one here and I'll add it into the comparison.

Regards,
Mark

 

[chunger]

Well shoot, the last thing I want to do is interrupt a good, wholesome internet squabble about who's vintage clone is better than who's vintage original mic. . . thought I'd interject a quick little mod to the specific capsule mount that's provided with this body.  The design is growing on me a bit because it's really easily and cleanly adjustable for height.  Originally, I was a bit bummed that the capsule sits pretty low in the headbasket, but because it is low, you can use a standoff of whatever height you decide to finely tune the capsule height and experiment with it non-destructively.

Here, I will be using a 6mm height M3 threaded standoff to raise the position of the capsule.

First step is to remove the headbasket to reveal the capsule.

Next, carefully remove the capsule and saddle.  It's strongly advised to not do this with a camera in one hand because the capsule is delicate 

With the saddle removed, we can easily install our standoff to raise the post height by 6mm.

And, reinstall the saddle and capsule.

Humans win!

I think the capsule height can go up another 2mm so an 8mm standoff can be used here to get the capsule position proportionally a bit closer to the original U87 position, but other variables may play a bigger role in sonic effects at this point like the headbasket being generally bigger than the original as well as the different meshing specs.  I like this simple mod a lot.  It looks like the capsule is where it should be.

 

[wave]

That's a brilliant mod Chunger! I need to do something like that in my DU67. Have you tried out the mic yet?

Dave