opamps and local decoupling of rails, some questions

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decoupling in a mid-range converter...

well, you have a device that works on 75% of its full potential, so it's your decision if you want to pimp it. Luckilly, the cost/improvement ratio will be a "pleasant surprise".

Did you (by chance) also try some (simplistic, like with a 3k3 resistor) class-A biasing of the I/O opamps?

Did you use X7R ceramics or tantalums or small poly's?
I don't know the RME layout but I suspect that you can't use SMD there.

(IME I can usually use SMD where there is tru-hole circuit and vice versa, I use tru-hole on SMD pcbs ..)
 
Diverting a bit off topic but this area interests me a lot. I now also noticed the DA conversion part deviates from the spec sheet implementation. They don't use the "FILTR" pins of the chip, clearly instructed in the spec! Pretty standard stuff. I'll fix that too.

tv said:
Did you (by chance) also try some (simplistic, like with a 3k3 resistor) class-A biasing of the I/O opamps?

No, but I swapped them all (NJM4580) to LME49860, input and output. This was actually a much bigger improvement than the mere local decoupling tests. It's kind of like a new unit now, and ALL specs improved (not to mention sound itself). Output seems to be in some standard three opamp differential configuration. I'm not going to mess with any of the SMD resistors, although I did manage a very clean SMD opamp swap already.

tv said:
Did you use X7R ceramics or tantalums or small poly's?

Small panasonic 50V poly's, through hole. They are tiny, and flexible and hence work there well. What are X7R ceramics by the way? Distributors?

and yes, cost/improvement ratio with this is indeed a pleasant surprise. I didn't expect this actually, having been fooled by R*E marketing.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EIA_Class_2_dielectric

it's the "less harmful" among the "bad" ceramics

it's abundant in SMD. perhaps a better choice compared to tantalums in guitar/instrument electronics. good enough for signal-path in stompboxes I guess.

but it's good for decoupling. in tru-hole circuits, you can solder these SMD creamic chips directly on the pads of electros without significantly altering the "height" of solder-side PCB..

for decoupling opamps, maybe leaded (tru-hole) multilayer X7R chips would be the better choice depending on existing layout.

 
thanks both of you. looks like it's marginally cheaper than the usual panasonic poly's I use so I just added some to my next order.

tv said:
Did you (by chance) also try some (simplistic, like with a 3k3 resistor) class-A biasing of the I/O opamps?

Could you elaborate on this a bit, an example maybe? I thought class-A biasing of opamps was a cheat to avoid cross-over distortion, and quite valid for cheap/old chips. I haven't seen (or heard) a convincing example why this cheap trick would do anything for modern top of the line chips.
 
It's a matter of taste. Best is to try it and decide if you like it or not.
Usually (by audiophiles "bible") it's a resistor from opamp out to neg. rail.
For the value - it's again a matter of trial-error.
 
Back on topic,

from the Hardy 990 document we see that the X7R ceramics are decent for decoupling needs. On the other hand, I've always used cheap "Stacked Metallized Plastic Film" (polyester?). For example Digikey part number P4525-ND and variants. Is this a bad choice? I'm not in the position to conduct detailed tests like mr. Hardy.
 
In addition to the great information presented so far, allow me to borrow a little bit from the high speed digital world too....  The physical construction of the opamp ICs and digital logic ICs in the high speed logic world are not much different...  Inside there are bond wires, usually thinner than a human hair.  These bond wires are typically made of gold or aluminum and hook up the "silicon" chip from the "bonding pad" on the chip to the black plastic molded package pin/frame that ultimately gets soldered to the PCB...

Since these bond wires are skinny, they can be inductors when high current, especially at high frequency, is trying to be shoe-horned through the skinnyness.... This causes (in the high speed digital world) ground bounce, where the local "ground" potential on the IC chip bond pad will actually rise up (due to the inductance bucking the current feeding through it and increasing voltage at the bonding pad on the IC to compensate as an inductor would normally do).  When the "ground" reference of the IC rises up, the logic thresholds go wonky and then a 1 is not a 1 and a 0 is not a 0, so the logic gate acts erratically and turns not into an AND gate or an OR gate, but into a MAYBE gate :)  Also keep in mind that since digital is "square waved" (except at really high freqs, it becomes rounded and more of a high freq analog problem) there is a lot of high frequency harmonics above the fundamental and the age-old debate of slew rate slowing down in FPGAs since you may not need all the harmonics (and power to maintain the harmonics) to represent a 1 or 0 on a receiving chip..

Capacitance, as mentioned previously is the "inverse" impedance of inductance and they can cancel each other out yielding a purely resistive load, in this case to the power supplies with a decoupling scheme.  This can be seen in a Smith Chart (a conformal mapping of impedances from the complex plane) as used for RF circuit design, but I submit that it can be used for audio too... Power Utility companies do the exact same thing too, where a large industrial factory with lots of industrial sized (inductive load) motors will have banks of capacitors outside the factory that the utility company can switch in and out (remotely) to keep the power factor on the utility grid near 1.0 (purely resistive).

Another borrowed concept from the high speed digital realm is that the return current (up at higher frequencies) likes to take the path of least INDUCTANCE...  This means that the return current likes to flow mostly under the sourcing current copper trace even if the return current has an entire ground plane to flow through... The main issue is that most ground planes may broken up where there is a gap where the source current copper trace goes over a split plane due to some component having to make the ground plane be split or else there would be a design rule violation in the manufacturing of the PCB house's manufacturing capabilities.... Some tricks include "stitching" capacitors across the two splits to compensate for the increase in inductance with the split plane (decoupling the inductance from the circuit)...

So in addition to the stray impedances (inductive or resistive) on the sourcing traces on the circuit board, there are also funny things that can happen at higher frequencies inside the IC.... Can you guarantee that RF won't get into the IC if no decoupling is used (or a particular style of decoupling is used over a different style of decoupling)?  The op-amp could have some high out of band frequencies near the audio band that could be just heating up the output transistors, causing them to draw more current and bounce the rails a little bit?  Of course it is always good to limit the bandwidth perhaps of the op-amp with a parallel capacitor in the FB, and the decoupling capacitors can do the rest...

Another thought, it just came to me (I dunno if this is true and maybe someone may care to correct me if I am wrong) is that PSRR may not be useful (or reduced) when swinging the outputs near the rails since the output transistors are "wide open throttle" (WOT?) so it is all up to the decoupling caps at that point (and perhaps the feedback?)...  I have obsessed previously over linear voltage regulation and they are typically not able to quiet down noise for the standard LM317s and the like throughout the entire audio band getting into the AM radio band.... for another A/D D/A design I have on the drawing board I have been trying to keep the power quiet so that it does not modulate into the A/Ds PSRR etc....  The typical voltage regs are great at quieting line frequencies and some of their harmonics though for a linear (non-switching) supply... 

The good news is that if making a PCB, it is easy enough put footprints of capacitors everywhere in the various decoupling schemes and not stuff them onto the board if it does call for it...

Sorry for the tome :)
Cheers,
-chris

 
The physical construction of the opamp ICs and digital logic ICs in the high speed logic world are not much different

Shoot, if I went and said that to the principle engineer he'd have a coronary.  He worked in high-speed digital IC design for a decade.  We discussed this once.  He got emotional to say the least.  ;D  It's not just pads and wires.  How it's made is based on what you are making and there are remarkably different design flows for analog and digital parts.  I won't go into detail but it even delves into the chemicals and dopes used on the different processes.  Completely different.

Since these bond wires are skinny, they can be inductors when high current, especially at high frequency, is trying to be shoe-horned through the skinnyness....

Good point.  I work in RF and I deal with a lot of this.  Most of the IC parts I get into have bottom pads for grounding.  Most think these are for cooling but the pad is really bonded to the die and serves as the shortest ground path for the die.  I find that both analog and digital parts are moving to this these days.  I also had an issue with a 8051 MCU from a well known company... It had only 2 ground pins.  Yeah the thing only ran at 25Mhz but we found that it was very highly susceptible to noise on ground AND when you had more than a few outputs on a bank toggling at one time, you started really bouncing that internal ground and could measure the bounce in other outputs..  Especially the SPI output which controlled a sensitive RF step attenuator.. :mad:

Another borrowed concept from the high speed digital realm is that the return current (up at higher frequencies) likes to take the path of least INDUCTANCE...  This means that the return current likes to flow mostly under the sourcing current copper trace even if the return current has an entire ground plane to flow through... The main issue is that most ground planes may broken up where there is a gap where the source current copper trace goes over a split plane due to some component having to make the ground plane be split or else there would be a design rule violation in the manufacturing of the PCB house's manufacturing capabilities.... Some tricks include "stitching" capacitors across the two splits to compensate for the increase in inductance with the split plane (decoupling the inductance from the circuit)...

I've used this to some success many times.  We always simulate PCB planes and then generally use excessive layer stacks so that we can have solid ground planes below the outer RF traces so we don't get gap discontinuities.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned but might not have significance in the low-speed audio world is package-trace inductance.  We talk about traces and bond wires but what of part leads?  Most assume that a SMD part is almost ideal but in high-speed, it's far from it.  One thing I've learned is that Dr. Johnson is the MAN when it comes to the study.  It boils down to using the smallest capacitor with the largest value for decoupling.  For me, that's a 1uf 0402 cap.  Removing the old "shotgun" caps (10pf/1nf/100nf) and replacing them with at least a single 1uf 0402 has "fixed" a few issues I've seen.  So much so that an old schooler ended up getting very angry that I fixed an issue that he couldn't fix..

Anyway,  good information and good to see you around here Twenty Log.



 
Svart said:
The physical construction of the opamp ICs and digital logic ICs in the high speed logic world are not much different

Shoot, if I went and said that to the principle engineer he'd have a coronary. 

You're right indeed.... I was hoping to not have to call 911, mainly because I can't remember the phone number for 911...  ;)

I was originally thinking of maybe CMOS 74HCT00 style of lead frames (sucking the max current through the open Drain) up at 1 MHz or more compared to other DIP style of Opamps (or even SMT versions of both technologies)...  Did not want to get into Under Bumped Metal and the like for BGAs :)

Good point.  I work in RF and I deal with a lot of this. 

Rock on!  I used to design parts of the design for Power Amps at 2GHz-ish (and lower) for GSM cellular handsets...  When's a capacitor not a capacitor?  When resonates as an inductor... hehehe

I've used this to some success many times.  We always simulate PCB planes and then generally use excessive layer stacks so that we can have solid ground planes below the outer RF traces so we don't get gap discontinuities.

I remember Cadence had a simulator to calculate the amount of stitching required across broken/split planes... I have done some SI analysis / simulation with Altium and SpecctraQuest, but I do not know if it has the whole PCB capability is available in Altium or if it is more like SpecctraQuest back in the day....

One thing that hasn't been mentioned but might not have significance in the low-speed audio world is package-trace inductance.  We talk about traces and bond wires but what of part leads?  Most assume that a SMD part is almost ideal but in high-speed, it's far from it. 

Indeed... these hidden impedances may not be significant but may not be trivial either at audio (given that we sometimes like bandwidth higher than 20k)...There are some coax cables that will exhibit skin effect at 21kHz; not trivial despite not being significant... This may be true when you have an amplifier sitting on the bench being the equivalent of a hair dryer since the thing is oscillating in the ultrasonic region due to some stray impedance coupling something... 
 
One thing I've learned is that Dr. Johnson is the MAN when it comes to the study.  It boils down to using the smallest capacitor with the largest value for decoupling.  For me, that's a 1uf 0402 cap.  Removing the old "shotgun" caps (10pf/1nf/100nf) and replacing them with at least a single 1uf 0402 has "fixed" a few issues I've seen.  So much so that an old schooler ended up getting very angry that I fixed an issue that he couldn't fix..

1uF 0402?  Sounds like MuRata? Film N0G?  Maybe Johanson?

Howard Johnson's book is the proverbial "bible" for high speed digital... The book is great for the technician level too to get the trappings of a seemingly analog problem in terms of thinking digital (yet still analog panache), and practical hands on...  I think there are probably some more in-depth books out there, but I don't know what they are and haven't had to go that far (yet; although I may for something really tricky coming up in a new design with low jitter clocking where I still have some questions)....

Great to see good company around here Svart.  Cheers...
 
These parts are AVX NPO/COG parts.  Some of the other vendors have some similar parts now too.

We did some very low jitter clock generation here for some LO designs.  PM me and I'll go over what we did and the results we got.

Another person around here that knows his weight in gold for high speed design around here is JDBakker.

Edit: Thought about it, if you are into RF, maybe your handle should be 10log instead of 20log.  ;D
 
I rather suspect they're X5R/X7Rs; those are reasonably common (if not cheap). I've worked with 0.47u C0G caps, and those came in 2220 footprints. The point about small packages having less parasitics is very valid, of course.

(Have a bit of a fever, so spending most of my time in bed sleeping and (re-)reading. This afternoon I was going through Bob Pease's "Troubleshooting Analog Circuits", wherein appears the following passage:

Bob Pease said:
About every year or so, a customer calls me about a drift problem: His V/F converter has poor TC, even though he said that he had put in a C0G 0.01uF capacitor as the main timer. Troubleshooting by phone - it's always a wonderful challenge. I ask him, "This C0G-ceramic 0.01uF capacitor ... is it ... as big as your little fingernail?" He says, "Oh no, it's a lot smaller than that." I reply, "Well, that's too small; it can't be a C0G." Problem solved. Actually there are some small C0G 0.01uF capacitors, but they are pretty uncommon unless you order them specially.
)

JDB.
[with a private stash of 1206 100n 25V C0G caps that find their way to selected spots and trouble areas]
 
Aha! The forums' bad brains are at it now.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqQtoMyi2xQ

Since it's confessions time, could you post the best parts' numbers so that us mere mortals can play with the goodies?
 
Since I don't do RF much anymore (except designing to prevent it from getting into the audio), when I look for capacitors, I just use the search filters in Digikey or Mouser to find one, but I haven't looked for 0402s in a long time (I used to work with 0201 and 01005 ! )...  Indeed they're probably expensive but as time goes on they will drop...

It used to be Johanson or MuRata for the tight tolerance film capacitors during my RF days used to "tune" circuits for VSWR, efficiency and power output..  Sometimes expensive, but the good news is that we only used a few per design... Digikey carries some of the MuRata; maybe others too...

Indeed it should be 10 log... but I have been into voltage gains now (despite being a licensed radio dude), and 20 log was available :)  not to say that 10 log was not available?

I usually stick with C0G and NPO, but for the holidays, I like egg N0G style of caps... I assume a 20 to 40 degree C internal temperature rise above ambient (I try to keep things low power).

And looking at more (deeper detailed) capacitor sheets shows interesting things happening beyond 25 degree C and beyond 20kHz, especially if yer using switching power supplies (despite a linear post reg that has no quieting above 1MHz and the noise feeds into and modulates the A/D stage thought the power supply rails)...

 
Twenty Log said:
And looking at more (deeper detailed) capacitor sheets shows interesting things happening beyond 25 degree C and beyond 20kHz, especially if yer using switching power supplies (despite a linear post reg that has no quieting above 1MHz and the noise feeds into and modulates the A/D stage thought the power supply rails)...

That's why the more anal designers start by trading a bit of SMPS efficiency for slower switch slewing, add passive filters + shielding before the linear postreg, consider shunt regs to keep the SMPS noise spectrum load-invariant and synchronize the SMPSes to the converter clocks.

JD 'loop area!' B.
 
I haven't done much work with SMPS, but the one I did work with could only sync one edge** to the system clock which hardly seems worth the trouble.  I guess one edge might make nastier noise than the other. In my one design experience the sync didn't make a difference in the noise floor.

JR

** Of course to sync both edges you'd have to have a system clock >> faster that SMPS and even then would compromise regulation.
 
JohnRoberts said:
In my one design experience the sync didn't make a difference in the noise floor.

For a purely analog system it may not matter much, but once you add A/D converters in the mix the frequency components of the switch noise falling near multiples of the sampling frequency (or: the S/D modulator rate) will get downconverted into the audio band. In a perfect world you'd do frequency planning so that switching noise components with enough energy to worry about always fall further than (say) 100kHz from N*fs (for any N); in a real system it can already be quite useful to make sure that any residual interference stays in the same spot. Time-variant interference tends to be more noticeable than steady hum/birdies.

(and no, this shouldn't be your only line of defense, but when you find yourself cramming a 120+dB dynamic range converter plus a SMPS in a 1U case everything helps)

JDB.
[real fun are PFM switchers, where the switching frequency is load dependent. Great for efficiency, not so great for EMI]
 

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