Overwhelmed by DIY info on microphones!!!

[Rixsta]

Capsule...

To me it looks like not the best parts but the valve holder was nice !

 

[ShaneSBG]

Rixsta : I own the WA87 and I can tell you 1st hand that its a pretty sick mic! so many "shootouts" on youtube that you can lose your mind...I'll say this, I wont get rid of it. I've been looking for that "Golden Chain" and one of my stops along the way has been this mic. I'm using it into a Gauge MP-1073 which is another "neve" clone and that to a WA2A then to my converters.

I have thought to myself, on more than 1 occasion, that I'm an idiot for continuing to mess with mics that are going to end up being pricey, but the reason I'm doing this 47 build is because its a 47! HI!
and 2 because I want to confirm what I'm already thinking...which is that I've already found my mic chain.
Full disclosure-I don't have an actual U87 to put it up against, but I have used a U87 on my vocal in the past and to me, this is pretty Killer.

I'll shoot a song to you if you would like to hear the mic in a real world app. I used it for my Vocal and for the "body" mic on my acoustic guitar track. Maybe, I'm wrong and I can get a better Vocal sound/Tone (which is the main reason I want to build this 47) But maybe this is the mic FOR ME

I also read that a few people were swapping the transformer in the WA87 from Cinemag to the AMI T13, Zenpro is doing this as a mail in MOD or if you want you can buy the transformer from them for like $85. So far I'm good as is, but I did ask one of the peeps that did the MOD and they liked it, he said it took the mic over the top in his opinion. Made the mids more natural among other things I cannot remember off hand. Anyway...that's my .02

I also ordered. and am awaiting, Vangaurd's V13 Tube Mic...That sucka looks pretty sick as well and I have heard and read great things about it. I am absolutely, without a teensee weensee doubt pumped about a U47, I know its a clone, but I do not care looking forward to holding it when I sleep and caressing its beautiful headbasket, kissing the grill....Hahaha!!! lemme know if you wanna hear anything

 

[Rixsta]

Hey ShaneSBG 
I should have said that I felt the WA87 almost identical to the U87 and sounded amazing! but I personal liked the higher freq in the Original U87.

Im mainly into the U47 I think, Looks like the valve one is going to cost way too much but the Fet 47 looks possible

Guys who can tell me what and where is the best place I can find the parts and kit and all the bits for Fet 47 here in England.

and if anyone can let me know what they think of this kit would be helpfull, thing is its still in America and Im in England.
https://microphone-parts.com/collections/microphones/products/t47-microphone

 

[ShaneSBG]

Rixsta : Gotcha...makes total sense. Again, I'm probably not a lot of help with that, but I can wholeheartedly say that the T47 was a build I was sold on doing, but I ended up with the means to do the U47 clone 

 

[Rixsta]

Rixsta : Gotcha...makes total sense. Again, I'm probably not a lot of help with that, but I can wholeheartedly say that the T47 was a build I was sold on doing, but I ended up with the means to do the U47 clone 

Hey Thanks ... which 47 Clone do you mean sorry and which thread is the build on this forum ? cheers m8

 

[ShaneSBG]

Hey Thanks ... which 47 Clone do you mean sorry and which thread is the build on this forum ? cheers m8

Rixsta: I am planning on doing the D-47 from
http://www.vintagemicrophonepcbkit.com/D-47.html
Just waiting for the rest of my parts...the build thread was here before. This time when I looked for the build instructions they were actually in a drop box account that I downloaded them from.  8)

You were asking about price for a clone build...I just figured out how much I've spent so far and its about $700.  I didn't buy a wood box for the mic, or a case for everything yet, but I will. I'm not sure which one I want yet. I saw a couple for $80 and there was one for what looked like $20, but its sold out so I don't know what I wanna do yet. So far honestly more than I figured out before I started buying parts

Ive never done a DIY mic build before and I can say so far it's been DIY. I was aimed in the general direction, but am going to have to figure out a few things, as far as how I wanna do them myself. The build instructions for the build are straight forward and pretty simple to follow, but I have had to find some parts and figure out the PSU case, that can be a cool thing esp with the cost of the mic.  8)  I'm building a microphone that is crazy expensive and so far have spent $700...I can see why I am left to kind of figure some things out. Its also not at all like anyone I asked something didn't answer, they totally did, but  for some reason I was thinking this build was going to be how the Mic-Parts thing is set up.  He gives you everything you need, sorta like color by #, with every part from him and his directions are supposed to be super easy to follow. You email him for support on his kits...He's basically holding your hand, but you're doing the build.  It isn't like that with this one. I've had to get parts from a few different places. I was given a basic material list and a link for most everything, but there are a few small things that aren't on the list, yet are part of the build...nothing important...I mean like the power switch and power light, a couple things like that. 

For me the main thing is I wanted to do an actual 47 clone and Mic-Parts doesn't do actual clones, more like mics based loosely on a particular mic. Still his mic kits have gotten a lot of great reviews from people though, but again I wanted a U47.  So, that's my experience so far and it will actually be awesome when it is done because it really has been a DIY thing instead of literally being handed every noock and cranny.. even though that's what I was thinking I was going to be doing. Good thing is forums like this, I've been reading and theres a lot of people that will go out of their way to help you with things...the community part is really cool...Theres the short answer! HaHa  ;D

 

[Rixsta]

Thanks a lot for your reply

That kit really does look a good one, its fun doing DIY especialy at times you have time in your life. I Think Ive written off the Valve U47 as it will take too much money and time to do so am opting for a Fet U47 but from what Ive heard its the capsule that makes the most difference in sound quality.

Great your getting on with a build and once you know your way around Im sure youll feel more comfortable with what your doing.
I can also recommend for Hi-Fi amp, over at diyaudio.com  Class-A amplifiers by Nelson Pass. if one day you feel able to tackle something bigger

I wonder how DIY U47 compares to say the average 100-£200 mic

 

[e.oelberg]

I wonder how DIY U47 compares to say the average 100-£200 mic

this very much depends if you washed your hands before working on a mic or not.

 

[abbey road d enfer]

Also, which Microphones are Class-A circuitry ?

Late to the party, but I want to clear that issue.
Class A has been used as a buzzword by marketing guys, making it synonymous with high-quality and esoteric performance, but class A is just one of the possible class of operation for any (FET, BJT, MOSFET, tube...) active device, and in fact the only possible when using a single device for linear operation. Nearly all microphones use single-device stages, so they're all class A. There are very few exceptions; for example, one of these exceptions is the CAD300, that uses opamps, which output stage operates in class AB. The mostly laudatory reviews it received shows that this is not a factor.
Anyway, in a microphone, the quality and adequacy of the capsule is the dominating element in the actual performance.
You can have a good demonstration of that by comparing a tube-based Neumann M149 and its solid-state counterpart TLM49.

 

[rmburrow]

Thanks a lot for your reply

That kit really does look a good one, its fun doing DIY especialy at times you have time in your life. I Think Ive written off the Valve U47 as it will take too much money and time to do so am opting for a Fet U47 but from what Ive heard its the capsule that makes the most difference in sound quality.

Great your getting on with a build and once you know your way around Im sure youll feel more comfortable with what your doing.
I can also recommend for Hi-Fi amp, over at diyaudio.com  Class-A amplifiers by Nelson Pass. if one day you feel able to tackle something bigger

I wonder how DIY U47 compares to say the average 100-£200 mic

The sound of your DIY mic depends on  the quality of the components used.  The capsule and output transformer may be the most critical (and expensive) components in the microphone.  You may like the valve "sound" better than the FET.  I would rather pay premium money for a Neumann or Thiersch capsule than "Brand X".  Same with the output transformer, like some of the Tab-Funkenwerk remakes of the German transformers.  Power supplies for valve microphones can be cloned from Neumann's  "NKM" unit.  I personally like the gas VR valve (150B2, can use OA2 or OD3 in your own unit) across HT in the NKM to limit the voltage off the rectifier.  No zener diodes across HT to short out.  Low current combination HT/12 v power transformers for regulated HT and heater supplies are not expensive.  Think about it this way, DIY your U47 valve, use a good capsule and output transformer, and get something that sounds (and probably looks) just as good as something you may pay 15 times as much for an original... and enjoy knowing you built it yourself...

As for valves:  I have personally used the 7586 nuvistor, 5703 subminiature, 5840 subminiature (triode connected), EF86, 6072, and the venerable AC701 in microphones.  The AC701 has a 4 volt heater and is extremely expensive, and there is NO guarantee you will get a quiet one.  The 7586, 5703, and 5840 are much less expensive than a AC701 (by perhaps fifty fold), so one can afford to get a few of them, and select for the lowest noise.  Before the late Oliver Archut passed on, he and I had several phone discussions about using various valves in microphones, and the runaway cost of AC701's; he seemed to like the 5840 the best of the options.  (Note the 7586, 5703, and 5840 have 6.3 volt heaters and 120 v HT supply is suitable for each; the EF86 has a 6.3 volt heater but also requires higher HT.)

I haven't tried the EF800, or any of the "Stahlrohren" types EF12, EF14, etc......don't have any here to try.  My test mic doesn't have room for a "Stahlrohre"....

Good luck and enjoy DIY...

 

[micaddict]

The 7586, 5703, and 5840 are much less expensive than a AC701 (by perhaps fifty fold)

Or 500 fold.

 

[rmburrow]

Or 500 fold.

Don't know about 500 fold (yet).  But workable alternatives to the AC701 exist.

Neumann used the AC701 in the KM64 mic, and the 7586 nuvistor in the export version U64.  Tektronix used the 7586 on the input circuits of some of their mid-1960's vintage oscilloscopes.

There is not enough reliable published test data on various tubes used at the high impedance found in condenser microphones.    Most of the published tube data assumes grid resistance up to a few megohms at most, NOT hundreds of megohms encountered with condenser microphones.

 

[Phrazemaster]

Don't know about 500 fold (yet).  But workable alternatives to the AC701 exist.

Neumann used the AC701 in the KM64 mic, and the 7586 nuvistor in the export version U64.  Tektronix used the 7586 on the input circuits of some of their mid-1960's vintage oscilloscopes.

There is not enough reliable published test data on various tubes used at the high impedance found in condenser microphones.    Most of the published tube data assumes grid resistance up to a few megohms at most, NOT hundreds of megohms encountered with condenser microphones.

Recently bought two AC701K's from a reputable dealer who also pre-tested them for noise. They were about $300/ea. They can be found if you look.

 

[micaddict]

Don't know about 500 fold (yet). 

Well, I paid less than three bucks for my 5840s.
And here's just one example of the 500 (+) fold:
https://tubedepot.com/products/ac701

 

[Rixsta]

Late to the party, but I want to clear that issue.
Class A has been used as a buzzword by marketing guys, making it synonymous with high-quality and esoteric performance, but class A is just one of the possible class of operation for any (FET, BJT, MOSFET, tube...) active device, and in fact the only possible when using a single device for linear operation. Nearly all microphones use single-device stages, so they're all class A. There are very few exceptions; for example, one of these exceptions is the CAD300, that uses opamps, which output stage operates in class AB. The mostly laudatory reviews it received shows that this is not a factor.
Anyway, in a microphone, the quality and adequacy of the capsule is the dominating element in the actual performance.
You can have a good demonstration of that by comparing a tube-based Neumann M149 and its solid-state counterpart TLM49.

Thanks for that
Ok I thought that Class-A was a way of Biasing a transistor so that it stays on and that it was not about topology of circuit. its nice to learn some stuff.
Ive had a good look around here and it seems there are some good capsules to use  Thiersch Blue Line, Beesneez M7, Eric Heiserman HK47.

Cheers for the info.

 

[Rixsta]

The sound of your DIY mic depends on  the quality of the components used.  The capsule and output transformer may be the most critical (and expensive) components in the microphone.  You may like the valve "sound" better than the FET.  I would rather pay premium money for a Neumann or Thiersch capsule than "Brand X".  Same with the output transformer, like some of the Tab-Funkenwerk remakes of the German transformers.  Power supplies for valve microphones can be cloned from Neumann's  "NKM" unit.  I personally like the gas VR valve (150B2, can use OA2 or OD3 in your own unit) across HT in the NKM to limit the voltage off the rectifier.  No zener diodes across HT to short out.  Low current combination HT/12 v power transformers for regulated HT and heater supplies are not expensive.  Think about it this way, DIY your U47 valve, use a good capsule and output transformer, and get something that sounds (and probably looks) just as good as something you may pay 15 times as much for an original... and enjoy knowing you built it yourself...

As for valves:  I have personally used the 7586 nuvistor, 5703 subminiature, 5840 subminiature (triode connected), EF86, 6072, and the venerable AC701 in microphones.  The AC701 has a 4 volt heater and is extremely expensive, and there is NO guarantee you will get a quiet one.  The 7586, 5703, and 5840 are much less expensive than a AC701 (by perhaps fifty fold), so one can afford to get a few of them, and select for the lowest noise.  Before the late Oliver Archut passed on, he and I had several phone discussions about using various valves in microphones, and the runaway cost of AC701's; he seemed to like the 5840 the best of the options.  (Note the 7586, 5703, and 5840 have 6.3 volt heaters and 120 v HT supply is suitable for each; the EF86 has a 6.3 volt heater but also requires higher HT.)

I haven't tried the EF800, or any of the "Stahlrohren" types EF12, EF14, etc......don't have any here to try.  My test mic doesn't have room for a "Stahlrohre"....

Good luck and enjoy DIY...

Cheers
Ive decided to go with a FET version due to being a traveling man currently and also the cost, but next time can build a valve mic! the U47 is a lovely mic anyway, I want to try find some samples on the net of people using those Thiersch Blue Line, Beesneez M7, Eric Heiserman HK47 capsules on the FET version.
Again thanks for the info, I need to slowly take in all the valve stuff

 

[RuudNL]

Ive just been comparing the WA-87 to the U87 on youtube videos and I think the U87 sounds a lot more detailed and overall better

I just had a WA-87 in for repair, but it doesn't sound even close to a U87...
Warm has used different component values, affecting the de-emphasis curve.
The result is that the microphone sounds harsh and annoying. Also the low-end seems to be restricted.
(By the way: they use a BF245 Fet, never seen this in a Neumann U87. Not that it really matters, but they claim that they are very close to the original.)

 

[Sredna]

„ ...they claim that they are very close to the original.)

Maybe they have an original U87 stored in-house? 

 

[RuudNL]

The WA-87 almost identical to a U87?  Really?
Capacitors glued to the PCB with the wires protruding through the PCB?
What a mess...

 

[rogs]

That's a commercial product ????.....
That's a brand  to avoid, I would think?...