Peluso 22 251 - you wouldn't believe...

[ln76d]

I couldn't resist

 

[RuudNL]

;D

 

[Khron]

Well, as we all know, resistance IS futile... ;D

I couldn't resist

 

[granger.frederic]

If i make mistake, then correct me Fred, but from what i remember, few times you commented here something like except the Neumann capsules and headbaskets cheap microphone parts sucks.
So now the one of thecheapest type of capsules- 32mm k67 and Alctron headbasket is ok?
(no offend intension!)

For me they still sucks a little bit.
From 100% Alctron, most of us know what expect.
New, "better', versions have maybe better circuits, transformers and look is also better. But in fact with the same capsule - which is the weakest part, they could sound better. Headbasket sucks a litlle bit also.
Yeah - there's QC, and prices aren't so bad (but imo still not worth) when you compare it to Peluso which is similar price range (or even more expensive) and there's no QC at all 

Khron did you read my post ?

i said "decent" not even "great", and "constant"...

headbaskets and bodies are upgraded and quite decent as well...did you really have one in your hands ???

ask telefunken and real mic techs, they will confirm that their capsules are selected, my experience confirm that also...

and for 1500$ , they sound fine, but not like a 10000$ classic mic and i would say fortunately (or unfortunately) ...

if you want a very good sounding mic (like a real elam 251 for ex), you have to pay much more, even if some pretend the opposite

Oh... and i don't like the way you're trying to trap me, in caricaturing !!! it's a bit ridiculous and i think you surely have more important things to do... don't you think?

 

[Khron]

Are you sure you got the right username there?

Khron did you read my post ?

 

[granger.frederic]

Sorry khron i mean ln76d !!!
oups  :-X

 

[Khron]

No harm done, it was just a tiny bit confusing I didn't know what, from the little i've said, got you quite that riled up.

 

[ln76d]

Khron did you read my post ?

i said "decent" not even "great", and "constant"...

headbaskets and bodies are upgraded and quite decent as well...did you really have one in your hands ???

ask telefunken and real mic techs, they will confirm that their capsules are selected, my experience confirm that also...

and for 1500$ , they sound fine, but not like a 10000$ classic mic and i would say fortunately (or unfortunately) ...

if you want a very good sounding mic (like a real elam 251 for ex), you have to pay much more, even if some pretend the opposite

Oh... and i don't like the way you're trying to trap me, in caricaturing !!! it's a bit ridiculous and i think you surely have more important things to do... don't you think?

No Fred, that wasn't my intention,  relax sometimes
I'm not saying, that there's no "selection" of capsules or QC, but mostly the same quality you can find in many generic chinese microphones, In fact most of alctrons which i had in my hands, had pretty good QC. Rather you need to be really unlucky to get this type of capsule faulty or badly skinned (opposite to 3micron version installed in cheapest microphones). It was rather about the type of the capsule, because many people really hate that model. In my opinion it's pretty good capsule (only with thicker diaphragms than 3microns)  but "telefunken us" not  fully using it potential.
Yes i had these microphones in my hands, i modified AK47 and AR51, i was owner (for a while) of M16 MKII. Yes i know that bodies are much better coated, some have better mesh, but still all headbaskets makes frequency "coloration" which isn't the best for that specific capsule with their circuits. For the price - quality is ok, but unfortunately not the sound of it.
That's my few cents

 

[ln76d]

Out of curiosity i have read some opinions about 22 251. Especially on the "slutty" forum ;D
How the price can change the point of view
You can find comments like "it's a bright microphone", "good for female voices" etc.
I can bet, that the same people would smash t.bone (for example) in their opinions...

 

[granger.frederic]

No Fred, that wasn't my intention,  relax sometimes
I'm not saying, that there's no "selection" of capsules or QC, but mostly the same quality you can find in many generic chinese microphones, In fact most of alctrons which i had in my hands, had pretty good QC. Rather you need to be really unlucky to get this type of capsule faulty or badly skinned (opposite to 3micron version installed in cheapest microphones). It was rather about the type of the capsule, because many people really hate that model. In my opinion it's pretty good capsule (only with thicker diaphragms than 3microns)  but "telefunken us" not  fully using it potential.
Yes i had these microphones in my hands, i modified AK47 and AR51, i was owner (for a while) of M16 MKII. Yes i know that bodies are much better coated, some have better mesh, but still all headbaskets makes frequency "coloration" which isn't the best for that specific capsule with their circuits. For the price - quality is ok, but unfortunately not the sound of it.
That's my few cents

By my personal experience, i haven't noticed the same QC in Alctron like mics...
i often noticed inclusions under diaphragms, poor tensioning , poor gold coating, poor sound, etc...
never with ALL the telefunken USA products that i tested...
i add that their capsules show different frequency responses/Alctron, thus different tuning, and are very constant...
the electronics are very decent, not much room to improve...

the metalwork for the price is coherent, even if here, there's room to improve in the vibratory domain...

i don't think we can honestly place Tbone or Alctron (and maybe Peluso...) and TFK USA in the same ballpark...

 

[Banzai]

No tantalum capacitors in TFK US mics.

Pricing is also way higher than what you mentioned: AK47 €2000 / AR51 €2200

 

[granger.frederic]

Banzai,

AR51: there 's a 2,2uF solid tantalum between the plate and the transformer , same than the elam...

my prices were in $, not €...

i don't work for TFK... but i just have the feeling that they're in a higher league than Tbone, period.

 

[Banzai]

Banzai,

AR51: there 's a 2,2uF solid tantalum between the plate and the transformer , same than the elam...

my prices were in $, not €...

i don't work for TFK... but i just have the feeling that they're in a higher league than Tbone, period.

It's a 2uf electrolytic (Sprague TE-1501). Not tantalum.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DEn61U_XoAEB-09.jpg

 

[granger.frederic]

yes it's the new capsule version !
there was different electronics versions as well, before...
here is the new capsule and new electronics...
if i recall well, the coupling cap was blue before...
i can't check it now, unfortunately
the other caps are different also
the capsule was K67 style, now "ck12" style
i've never tested this new version, don't know why they "upgraded" ...
if it was in my hands, i would change the caps for styroflex, elna  silmic 2 for cathode, and solid tantalum for coupling
i would put some teflon pins in the HiZ pcb section
i would also put teflon pins on the metal plate (capsule support) to beak some vibrations on the capsule to pcb wires, then i would close all the holes and check the sealing of the body
i would work on the capsule holder by adding extra damping material
i would also try to avoid pcb vibrations by using damping material, instead of screwing it directly on the metal structure
i would remove the thinest internal layer headbasket mesh (very opaque), and upgrade/decoupling the PSU caps
i would adjust, by hearing tests, the zener voltages for lower values (between 110 and 120 v), then re-bias the tube changed for a 6072a
if the new capsule is on par with the previous one, then i can assure you that the result should be nice and will last very long...

 

[shabtek]

Useful list of ways to help the cheep  mics there Frederic.

Ringy-ness of body and grilles is what separates the quality bodies from the knockoffs in my experience.
There is much room for mechanical improvements that you've listed in clone/donor body builds.

 

[granger.frederic]

Thanks Shabtek !

it's not the first time i try to point the vibratory issues in the cheap donor bodys, in this forum...(without much success i must admit)
glad that speaks to you !
there are other improvements possible, and that definitely makes a lot of sonic differences, especially on loud sources (including human voice...)
After dampening and mechanical management , any mic is far less colored and has a cleaner transient response
Of course , on the very high end mics (especially Elam), a lot is already done....

 

[kingkorg]

Man, you like TF RFT i don't. I still consider it scam. Is that ok?

And i have reason and right to. Why? Becouse i can buy Shure KSM 44 for 999$ all USA made, designed by a company that actualy builds mics, and DEVELOPS mics, kick *** components, kick *** capsule, 1000% better mechanics than any mic we mention here, and it sounds AWESOME.

TF can sell upgraded chinese stuff, Peluso can as well, but for 300$ MAX!

There is a matter of ethics as well. Would you support a company that actualy develops things, and tries to take us to next level, and make new breakthrougs like Røde, Shure, Audio Technica, Brauner, and list can go on and on...

Or would you DONATE your money to someone who is specialized in rebranding vintage designs, ruining them, naming them their own products after original manufacturers gave up on them, and creating RFT line for wannabes made by same chinese company those wannabes try to stay away from.

Having that said, i never had a problem using chinese stock Alcatron, it is totaly usable, anything i do with any 1000+++ mic, i can do with Alctron, RFT, Se, Behringer. They all work fine as long as they work, and as long as you know what they do well.

But when i spend 1000+ i want to know about it, i want to know what i am buying, it can be chinese, it can be from Africa, but i want, and have right to know what it is about.

I had direct discussion with Uli Behringer on a forum when he said:" I never understod why something that has 100$ worth of components costs 3000$. I want to make it and sell it for 300$" And he continued praising of his Roland JUNO Behringer product.

Well sure, he didn't have to DEVELOP it. So, we should invest in Behringer, Telefunken, and praise their marvelous inovative designs?

I got banned in the end of discussion, i provided too much behind the curtains info about Behringer in the end. Uli got rid of me

 

[granger.frederic]

so, after something useful, we have to discuss again about  TFK...

firstly, the ksm44 is discontinued and replaced by ksm44a : 1250$

and it is a FET microphone... ???  SO i think we must compare apples with apples, not oranges

it's not that i LIKE TFK RFT 
i said that they're in a higher league than behringer, alctron, Tbone, etc..., because they are selecting their capsules, their tubes, use higher grade components, wirings and metalwork...
they take care of details that make differences
they can't honestly sell their products 300$...1500$ seems acceptable for me, for the very usable sound they produce, the build and control quality, and their appearance

 

[kingkorg]

To simplify story, these capsules

http://store.t-funk.com/p/tk51d-capsule

Is this exact capsule, and costs 21$.

https://m.alibaba.com/product/60599938963/large-golden-diaphragm-microphone-studio-mylar.html?spm=a2706.7843299.1998817009.34.6QRYft

Maybe as i have background in retail i react this way. After my experience, in huge quantitues these can be lowered to as much as 15$.

So charging 180$ for quality control?
I have had 4 of these capsules, and they come from factory pretty consistent comming from factory. Tim Campbel should start charging 500$ for his capsules.

And yes those mics can be sold for 300$, because when produced in big quantities they cost no more than 100$ to produce. Remember, TFK gets way lower prices on anything they source than us buying things on Mouser.

I am not  comparing apples to oranges, good mic is a good mic. TFK being a tube mic doesint mean anything. It has even fewer parts, and big chinese power supply that costs 30$ in retail on Thoman, which will say that it costs no more than 10$ to produce in China.

 

[Khron]

But hey, if it's cheap, it obviously automatically sounds cheap, so it "has to" be expensive, to sound good (especially with such a "weighty" brand as Telefunken behind it)...  :