Re: U47 clone transformer lamination alloy

[Dobrilo]

Light elements like C and other impurities are not shown in this analysis.

Clear, but how did you ended with 100% . This kind of alloys typically contains from 1-2% impurities. Your numbers are represented as not rounded as I can see. It still looks like qualitative prediction analyses to me.... Not a big deal just my 0.2c

 

[Dobrilo]

>>This kind of alloys typically contains from 1-2% impurities.

No, more like (ballbark figures) >= 0.05% C , >= 0.005% P, >= 0.005% S and some 0.1%to 0.2% Si

Sorry Max, those numbers are not possible in the real world. I don' want to teach you chemistry here but your measuring doesn't look real to me. Also, check the VAC's info about Mumetall alloy. Your measuring results of specimens don't match their chemistry,  also, if you look better you will find approx 1% of impurities. http://www.vacuumschmelze.com/index.php?id=495
From my experience VAC has the cleanest possible alloys compared to other soft magnetics  manufacturers.
One more detail. From the picture of your new transformer design I see a lot of black oxidation on top of the lamination. That leads me to the strange heat treatment aproach, or  probably non vacuum treatment or maybe even treating in the leaky furnace. This specimen will show much more than 1% of C. Can you guess what portion of your alloy you burned during this process?

 

[Dobrilo]

And again attacks from Montenegro. (edit: oh moby is from serbia)
Why should i post wrong or made up measurements?
If you have better data, why not come up with it?
The link to VAC shows no impurities - where do you read the 1%?
Why do you judge my transformer from the looks of the oxidation alone -  without having tested anything - especially when you have "20 years as chemistry lab technician in the field of materials"?

Attack again? Serbia, Montenegro, what you are talking about? I'm talking about accuracy of your measuring.I don't understand this comment.
The reason of posting superficial measuring I don't understand either.
What data you want to see? VAC's Mumetall? No problem, give me couple of days and I will post it here.
Regarding impurities, all elements besides Ni76.6, Cu4.5, Mo3.3, Fe14.7 are imputities.
Also, I don't judge your transformer, just comment that your final heat treatment  aproach is not the same as usuall used in the field of soft magnetics. If you use protective atmosphere as Hydrogen, or cracked amonia you will end with silver color but with partially yellow grains. Try to look original laminates under the microscope, you will figure out what I'm talking about.
Black oxide is visible by eye, and it's product of high dew point of the protective atmosphere.
At the end, if you produce something and take a profit for that you have to be carefull and acurate with the informations. Othervise, be prepared for criticizm and profesional suggestions to improve. You can ignore my comments but I can't ignore facts I see here.

 

[Dobrilo]

Regarding impurities, all elements besides Ni76.6, Cu4.5, Mo3.3, Fe14.7 are imputities.

Hear hear.. (this is just plain wrong - again!)
Just a hint for everybody else if it's not obvious...moby and co are planning to sell their own material and are therefore attacking my stuff. http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=52099.20

Max, you asked for a document and here it is. Mumetall by VAC. This is how real measuring have to look. All impurities and of course complete chemical composition is presented with high accuracy. I don't sell this, it's for free. Also, I don't sell transformers, laminates or such a things,  so relax please. I do this only for education purpose. File will be available for some time … cheers
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3863856/VAC.jpg

 

[Dobrilo]

Thanks for this document.
Interesting the 3.3 %Aluminium and the 2.6%Silicon of the tested (modern?) VAC mumetall - are these the impurities you mentioned?
Again the above results from the various laminations are the results of a analysis and not made up by me - again why should i?
If you feel the test results do not meet your high expectations - i am sorry for that but i found it interesting anyhow.

Other than that - pls forgive me if i missread your agenda.
peace.

p.s. yes my heat treatment involves oxidation at the last step - on purpose - for isolating the lams from each other.

U welcome. I'm glad you figure out my point. If someone still have a doubt about I chimed here only because somebody in the past asked about the chemistry and is  it the alloy original or not. As a chemistry techinician I can speak only by the measuring facts and by comparing. It's up to you to judge is it original or not. Also, original composition must match every single element but some tollerance is acceptable since their % vary from batch to batch.
Be avare that specimen I analyzed was not prepared, just roughly cleaned but 3% of some element can't be just impuritie. Maybe yes if in the process of alloy smelting was used 95% pure metals but It's there from the very begiening.
Regarding your results I can't say more than I already commented. I will able to say more if you provide model of the measuring system and few more enviroment details. But I presume that handheld meter was used. If yes, then acouracy is wery low since those kind of instruments are mostly used to determine presence of certain elements. Also, I think that they can't measure below Al.
At the end I'm really sorry if I highjacked your thread, that was not my agenda. Also, I don't plan to produce any of material, but I will be happy to help people looking for original material. I also contacted our friend Moby (under the alloy thread) and if he decide to go with that I'm in. Since we are from same region I heard a lot nice stories about him and must say that he is always ready to help people who ask for it. Peace and Cheers, Dobrilo

 

[Moby]

Regarding impurities, all elements besides Ni76.6, Cu4.5, Mo3.3, Fe14.7 are imputities.

Hear hear.. (this is just plain wrong - again!)
Just a hint for everybody else if it's not obvious...moby and co are planning to sell their own material and are therefore attacking my stuff. http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=52099.20

Dear Max, please don't do this, I don't attack you and your product. You shared false info and I reacted. I'm glad that Dobrilo shared document because people will notice difference from yours and original alloy. Again, I will kindly ask you to not represent your product as the original or clone because it's not. I believe it works under U47 circuit and I  have no doubts that it sounds great but  original was made by Vac and Krupp and that's original Bv series transformers material.
Regarding your paranoid statement that I will produce my material you are wrong. I just realized during my research that reissue of the original material is possible. It's not a simple task, but if I ever start this adventure it will be made by Vacuumschmeltze Germany and they are the only address in the world who can give Garantie for their registered product to A050 or other  magnetics properties. Also, if I decide to do that I will go without profit so the price will be lowest possible because that's the way I understand DIY community. Btw, I really feel bad because I type under your thread again and I'm really sorry if I disturb other users. I would like to say "peace brother" but I'm not sure that you will do the same. Peace.
P.s. Dobrilo, thanks for kind words about me. If we meet in the Lab  you have a beer

 

[Moby]

>>I don't attack you and your product.

well...

>> You shared false info and I reacted.

show me the false info.

>>I'm glad that Dobrilo shared document because people will notice difference from yours and original alloy.

Where are the results from the original alloy (which one?) and where is my alloy?
Stop lying already.

>>Again, I will kindly ask you to not represent your product as the original or clone because it's not.

I do not remember you having tested my bv08 transformer's lamination (except the old one which used original VAC mumetal)

So would you PLEASE stop the lying????

Max, please. i don't lie unless Vacuumschmeltze or  Lab ( same as Dobrilo sourced his document) lies.
I don't have any interests to lie.
Yes, I never tested your BV but if you used some of the alloys stated in your measuring than you use wrong alloy  with higher NI content and trimmed that material to meet A050 (or A051) permeability. Nothing wrong with that, just don't call it original and I will shut up.
Max, Vac's Mumetall  has lower NI content than you posted here so no need to post my documents. Also, check the Dobrilo's measuring once again  and watch it carefully.  Don't be fooled with name of the sample because when you measure few times every NEW sample can be old but newly measured
Also, I kindly ask you to comment in the future under "Alloy" thread because this became really boring for non interested users waiting for your bodies (personally I really like what you did).
Peace again and please don't call me liar.

 

[tardishead]

Anybody interested in transformers with clone Neumann lams please check this thread

https://groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=66764.0