untune
Well-known member
kingkorg said:
I'd want to hear it on synths before making any judgments
Roland Juno Chorus by TC
- Thread starter kingkorg
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Help Support GroupDIY Audio Forum:
I'd want to hear it on synths before making any judgments
Ive found a pair of boss Ce-5 's works well ,I own one and had another on loan uptil recently , I see now I can get one of the pre 2000 models ,with Panasonics MN3007 for about 30 euro's , and maybe put the two units into one hammond die cast box , mods to the clocking between the two pedals would be easy ,as well as making externaly clocked inputs possible .
Thats going to make a nice 'tail waggler' on my new reverb project , mono in /psuedo stereo out is only half the picture and width but thats how most guitar players want it , with the two units in sync or maybe out of sync by 180 degrees you have a huge range of width to play with, takes any mono sound into three dimensions, with carefull tuning you can make the sound source dance to the music.
Maybe John could explain a bit more about the kinds of clocking arrangments he used back in the day on stereo bbds .
Thats going to make a nice 'tail waggler' on my new reverb project , mono in /psuedo stereo out is only half the picture and width but thats how most guitar players want it , with the two units in sync or maybe out of sync by 180 degrees you have a huge range of width to play with, takes any mono sound into three dimensions, with carefull tuning you can make the sound source dance to the music.
Maybe John could explain a bit more about the kinds of clocking arrangments he used back in the day on stereo bbds .
untune said:
I don't want to be a party breaker, after all i started it
However it is very obvious it sounds nothing like Juno. I mean, not even in the ballpark. There is not a trace of wobbling/tremolo effect on the original. That is it's magic.
The speed is also off, TC is way too fast. Characteristic of the Juno C is that when enabled middle almost entirely disappears, signal becomes mostly L and R. Slight but obvious high end roll-off happens. It is 100% symmetrical L&R, Tc leans more towards one side, very typical for some other recreations.
I have been fan of Juno C for a very long time, i am very familiar with it, i am not jumping to conclusions, sadly this is not the same thing
Unless guys in both video demos did something very wrong, like using wrong power supply or strange mic setup
dmp
Well-known member
Sounds like the Amp tremolo was on in the first video?
It must be a different circuit - no way they could have used the original circuit with two MN3009
Cost would have been nuts. I wouldn't be surprised if they were 'emulating' the BBD
I haven't heard a guitar through my juno chorus (would need to add a ext input to try it) but I agree the juno chorus doesn't have wobble like that.
It must be a different circuit - no way they could have used the original circuit with two MN3009
Cost would have been nuts. I wouldn't be surprised if they were 'emulating' the BBD
I haven't heard a guitar through my juno chorus (would need to add a ext input to try it) but I agree the juno chorus doesn't have wobble like that.
untune
Well-known member
kingkorg said:I don't want to be a party breaker, after all i started it
Sorry I hope that wasn't taken the wrong way! ;D I just mean that they're (for some utterly bizarre reason) marketing this thing towards guitarists. Taking a legendary synth chorus and almost going out of their way not to even mention synths seems a bit weird. Even the official product video that dropped ysterday is purely guitar!
So I guess we'll have to wait and see until people can get their hands on it to get a proper test, but from what you're saying they've missed the mark anyway... and mono in doesn't seem to be making people too happy
build anything for 12 bucks>
https://aionelectronics.com/diy-pcb-projects/
get a JC120 if you like chorus , yamaha makes a copy,
pedals? visual sound H2O is lush,
how many breaks do you know? tonight we are polishing up Bartender by Lady A, Dierks Drunk on a Plane and Dicky and Duane's Blue Sky solos with that awesome weird bend from Db to E on the B string ,
(0:26 here)> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1pKmhLdUcM
me? well , let's see here ,
https://aionelectronics.com/diy-pcb-projects/
get a JC120 if you like chorus , yamaha makes a copy,
pedals? visual sound H2O is lush,
how many breaks do you know? tonight we are polishing up Bartender by Lady A, Dierks Drunk on a Plane and Dicky and Duane's Blue Sky solos with that awesome weird bend from Db to E on the B string ,
(0:26 here)> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1pKmhLdUcM
me? well , let's see here ,
Attachments
Im thinking of maybe just adding switchable BNC's for clock input on both my Ce-5's ,
I have a cheap n cheerfull dual channel arb gen, it can easily vary the phase between two output signals .
Looks like its several hundred to get a hold of the original 3009 chip used in the Juno chorus , they just arent many out there at all .Seems like the 3007 is the next best thing and plentyfull enough in existing pedals ,how you implement the clocking to make it proper stereo is the trick though .
Heres a page listing the various effects and their associated BBD chips used ,
http://djjondent.blogspot.com/2017/10/boss-ce-1-chorus-ensemble-panasonic-bbd.html
How could I derive an in phase and out of phase pulse from a simple 2 dollar sig gen from ebay ? it only need opperate in the LFO region
Could I use a small audio driver transformer like used in early transistor radios across the output of the gen ?then get + and - off the secondary ?
I have a cheap n cheerfull dual channel arb gen, it can easily vary the phase between two output signals .
Looks like its several hundred to get a hold of the original 3009 chip used in the Juno chorus , they just arent many out there at all .Seems like the 3007 is the next best thing and plentyfull enough in existing pedals ,how you implement the clocking to make it proper stereo is the trick though .
Heres a page listing the various effects and their associated BBD chips used ,
http://djjondent.blogspot.com/2017/10/boss-ce-1-chorus-ensemble-panasonic-bbd.html
How could I derive an in phase and out of phase pulse from a simple 2 dollar sig gen from ebay ? it only need opperate in the LFO region
Could I use a small audio driver transformer like used in early transistor radios across the output of the gen ?then get + and - off the secondary ?
Attachments
use polycarbonate caps if you want low drift,
anybody play try out a Boss Katana? that new amp is something else
anybody play try out a Boss Katana? that new amp is something else
Since the number of buckets is too large in all of the IC's that you can get nowadays, you might need to up the clock speed to get delay times which are short enough.
I wouldn't use the XR2206, it is out of production for a while already, and it is unlikely that there is a real 2206 in those kits. But a 4046 is all you need (you can even make it CV controllable), there are a few schematics out there, I'll see if I can dig them up.
To create the two clock signals for a BBD you can use a single clock signal, which you sent through a CMOS inverter like a 4049
Also, put several sections in that 4049 in parallel to keep the clock square (the input capacitance of the BBD's).
This is becoming a wildly different topic than in the description though, might be good to split this discussion off.
Also: https://groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=48055.0
I wouldn't use the XR2206, it is out of production for a while already, and it is unlikely that there is a real 2206 in those kits. But a 4046 is all you need (you can even make it CV controllable), there are a few schematics out there, I'll see if I can dig them up.
To create the two clock signals for a BBD you can use a single clock signal, which you sent through a CMOS inverter like a 4049
Also, put several sections in that 4049 in parallel to keep the clock square (the input capacitance of the BBD's).
This is becoming a wildly different topic than in the description though, might be good to split this discussion off.
Also: https://groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=48055.0
Tubetec said:
Hi Jarno ,
I did some experimenting last night , disconnected the internal LFO on my CE-5 , wired it up first to the 2206 , wasnt great , output voltage drops off in the low ranges so it couldnt do the job properly .
Then I hooked up my Feeltech arb gen , the many different waveforms created interesting sounds and gave infinate variation over the standard saw wave LFO built into the pedal ,If you go much beyond the usual frequency range of the the built in LFO you either end up with imperceptibly short delay of good quality in one direction vs longer delays where the sound almost becomes unrecogniseable to itself
Driving the LFO waveform input(with depth pot wiper disconnected ) with 4,5,6,7 volts at low frequency and the Ce-5 held up very well ,it allowed a much stronger 'effect' than the standard onboard LFO which could only manage about 4 volts swing ,being able to drive the effect deeper means when your recombining it with the clean original sound in parralell you need much less effect return level ,so this would seem to improve the noise overall .
There was some residual dc voltage at the input due to the transistor up ahead ,so I simply dialed in approximately the same offset voltage on the arb gen output , Im not sure if thats correct or not , but in any case I swept the offset down to zero and it had no effect on the sound .
Anyway it seems like a plan to box up two CE-5s and make the LFO path accesible on both ,
I have my eye on a second old model Ce-5 , and my brother also wants to convert his to dual if he can find a second unit .
I have a pair of die cast boxes suitable for the project , I could in theory run all four units synced from the 2 Feeltech arbgens , any degree of phase shift I want between channels , any wave form ,
thats bound to sound very tasty on the right source material
I see Behringer has released a new modular analog synth ,no doubt packed with Cool audio's silicon , surely it wouldnt have added much to Uli's bom to make the 'June' a proper stereo implementation BBD chorus , the penny pinchers won again it seems and their trying to short change the customer in the process , its a bit of an imbarressment for the company to be honest, a wasted chance .
I did some experimenting last night , disconnected the internal LFO on my CE-5 , wired it up first to the 2206 , wasnt great , output voltage drops off in the low ranges so it couldnt do the job properly .
Then I hooked up my Feeltech arb gen , the many different waveforms created interesting sounds and gave infinate variation over the standard saw wave LFO built into the pedal ,If you go much beyond the usual frequency range of the the built in LFO you either end up with imperceptibly short delay of good quality in one direction vs longer delays where the sound almost becomes unrecogniseable to itself
Driving the LFO waveform input(with depth pot wiper disconnected ) with 4,5,6,7 volts at low frequency and the Ce-5 held up very well ,it allowed a much stronger 'effect' than the standard onboard LFO which could only manage about 4 volts swing ,being able to drive the effect deeper means when your recombining it with the clean original sound in parralell you need much less effect return level ,so this would seem to improve the noise overall .
There was some residual dc voltage at the input due to the transistor up ahead ,so I simply dialed in approximately the same offset voltage on the arb gen output , Im not sure if thats correct or not , but in any case I swept the offset down to zero and it had no effect on the sound .
Anyway it seems like a plan to box up two CE-5s and make the LFO path accesible on both ,
I have my eye on a second old model Ce-5 , and my brother also wants to convert his to dual if he can find a second unit .
I have a pair of die cast boxes suitable for the project , I could in theory run all four units synced from the 2 Feeltech arbgens , any degree of phase shift I want between channels , any wave form ,
thats bound to sound very tasty on the right source material
I see Behringer has released a new modular analog synth ,no doubt packed with Cool audio's silicon , surely it wouldnt have added much to Uli's bom to make the 'June' a proper stereo implementation BBD chorus , the penny pinchers won again it seems and their trying to short change the customer in the process , its a bit of an imbarressment for the company to be honest, a wasted chance .
LFO modulates delay time in the Ce-5 ,in other words a certain dc voltage corresponds to a certain delay time in mS.
Sweeping the dc (and therefore delay time)up and down = chorus
That was a great article on the BBD multieffects , helped my understanding of whats going on under the hood hugely.I only skimmed it so I'll go back again later and look closer .
Looks like I might get a chance to test out the CE-5 in stereo tonight ,as my brother calls down later . if he lets me hack the LFO input that is . The arb gen was only 60 euros so on top of the value of the pedals which I estimate to be around 30 each ,so 120 for a chorus that simply isnt available off the shelf anymore , and is a major step up from simple stomp box mono units . I found that trapezoidal wave forms sounded better than saw wave but read that stepped waveform is good too .Sine type pulses were also very usable , having a representation of the LFO waveform displayed on the arb allowed an instant visual reference between cause and effect ,so to speak . The waveforms that work are instantly recogniseable to the ears , but of course once you start mixing and blending two sources and two BBDs other subtleties come through , might be possible to sweep the phase of the two LFO's in opposition to each other , Im trying to imagine what that might do to the sound but I have no idea until I try. Theres all kinds of sweep modes available on the Feeltech ,they can be set either down to up ,up to down or back and forth . With the addition of the generator a whole range of multi effects is available , its down to how you use the control voltage on one hand and how also how you route and mix the output signals etc .
The faithful old DrawmerDS201 dual gate will add even more slam to my new all analog effects rack , Watkins copy cat for delay Four tank spring reverb with valve drive and recovery , BBDs for Phase Flange chorus and possibly fixed delay when the copy cat vary speeds for real tape 'phasing' .I'll hardly even need to power up my digital effects anymore ,it'll be all hands on ,get stuck in ,one control per function ,no menus and no graphics to distract the senses just the way it should be in studio . Im tempted to leave out overload indication/metering too , so the ear is the final judge on the tolerable level of distortion ,not a blinking red led
Sweeping the dc (and therefore delay time)up and down = chorus
That was a great article on the BBD multieffects , helped my understanding of whats going on under the hood hugely.I only skimmed it so I'll go back again later and look closer .
Looks like I might get a chance to test out the CE-5 in stereo tonight ,as my brother calls down later . if he lets me hack the LFO input that is . The arb gen was only 60 euros so on top of the value of the pedals which I estimate to be around 30 each ,so 120 for a chorus that simply isnt available off the shelf anymore , and is a major step up from simple stomp box mono units . I found that trapezoidal wave forms sounded better than saw wave but read that stepped waveform is good too .Sine type pulses were also very usable , having a representation of the LFO waveform displayed on the arb allowed an instant visual reference between cause and effect ,so to speak . The waveforms that work are instantly recogniseable to the ears , but of course once you start mixing and blending two sources and two BBDs other subtleties come through , might be possible to sweep the phase of the two LFO's in opposition to each other , Im trying to imagine what that might do to the sound but I have no idea until I try. Theres all kinds of sweep modes available on the Feeltech ,they can be set either down to up ,up to down or back and forth . With the addition of the generator a whole range of multi effects is available , its down to how you use the control voltage on one hand and how also how you route and mix the output signals etc .
The faithful old DrawmerDS201 dual gate will add even more slam to my new all analog effects rack , Watkins copy cat for delay Four tank spring reverb with valve drive and recovery , BBDs for Phase Flange chorus and possibly fixed delay when the copy cat vary speeds for real tape 'phasing' .I'll hardly even need to power up my digital effects anymore ,it'll be all hands on ,get stuck in ,one control per function ,no menus and no graphics to distract the senses just the way it should be in studio . Im tempted to leave out overload indication/metering too , so the ear is the final judge on the tolerable level of distortion ,not a blinking red led
Opps ,
Uli and the boys dropped the ball on that one ,
leaves the door wide open for a proper stereo dual BBD chorus unit.
I jammed a few hours on Dual Ce-5's with external LFO, my brother providing sounds from analog synths/drums ,its proving interesting ,you can three dimensionalise sound , direct signal in the middle followed by delays L/R which can be synchronised to the bpm , all of a sudden 'hole in the head' mono sources like analog synths are spread across the full soundstage , and apparent movement of the sound source can be set to groove against the tempo of the track, small changes in delay time cause the groove to shift, it almost feels like the sound source itself is dancing to the beat . Your not going to put it across an entire mix or it'll just turn into a mess , its probably better for music with plenty of space where it could really highlight a simple sound
source , I should probably let the tape roll next jam time and put up a sample or two ,we'll see what happens ...
Uli and the boys dropped the ball on that one ,
leaves the door wide open for a proper stereo dual BBD chorus unit.
I jammed a few hours on Dual Ce-5's with external LFO, my brother providing sounds from analog synths/drums ,its proving interesting ,you can three dimensionalise sound , direct signal in the middle followed by delays L/R which can be synchronised to the bpm , all of a sudden 'hole in the head' mono sources like analog synths are spread across the full soundstage , and apparent movement of the sound source can be set to groove against the tempo of the track, small changes in delay time cause the groove to shift, it almost feels like the sound source itself is dancing to the beat . Your not going to put it across an entire mix or it'll just turn into a mess , its probably better for music with plenty of space where it could really highlight a simple sound
source , I should probably let the tape roll next jam time and put up a sample or two ,we'll see what happens ...
