Should reading The Lab require validated registration?

[thermionic]

I haven't voted yet for the same reasons Steve outlines, I think the poll should stay up for at least a week or two.

Alex makes a great point, although I'm not entirely sure how you'd stop people filling in bogus info.

Justin

 

[alk509]

[quote author="Peter Simonsen"]You seem to "see" profit ONLY as in selling the clone..that in my world is a very "funny" way of looking at the term "profit"[/quote]

I'm re-reading my posts to find exactly where you may have gotten the impression that I "seem to 'see' profit ONLY as in selling the clone", but can't find any such reference. In any case, you'd have to be a bit dim not to realize that there's a difference between profiting from the use of a clone and profiting from the sale of a clone, just like there's a difference between selling a CD of Mozart music (which, like the G9, is in the public domain) and licensing it to some fool. I think it's pretty clear that by posting the plans for the G9 (which, btw, is not a clone), Jakob is giving you permission to use it in your work, not to sale it for profit.

As for clones, the notion that cloning gear takes profit away from the original designer is childish, at best... I don't know any studio owner who would rather make an LA2a clone than buy one, if he/she had the money. And I don't know any client who's gonna come to you because you have an SSL clone, when the studio next door charges the same money and has the real deal.

Now, going back to the original post, I see there's a lot of "No" votes, so I'm starting to re-consider the whole thing... Can anybody give me a good and concrete reason why making the forum registered-only is a bad idea? Anything a little less vague than "it will stifle things" or "we'll wither and die" will do. Thanks!

Peace,
Al.

 

[alk509]

[quote author="thermionic"]Alex makes a great point, although I'm not entirely sure how you'd stop people filling in bogus info.[/quote]

This is irrelevant. People can fill in all the bullshit they want... The point of requiring registration is to log people's IP's. Nothing else.

Peace,
Al.

 

[alk509]

[quote author="tony dB"]Closing the doors would mean locking out people as myself in a way, so maybe it's not the best option in terms of keeping it real and alive (DIY!)[/quote]

How so? Please explain. :?:

Al.

 

[moosapotamus]

I'm not sure I really understand why anyone would care if someone else profits from information that gets posted here. As Al suggests, if there's any food getting taken out of anyone's mouth, I just don't see it happening.

Also, to Tony's point... lots of us who use our DIY gear in our studios have already been profiting from it for some time now, right?. Certainly, we all profit intellectually by building our own stuff, and from what gets discussed and shared here. Whatever it amounts to, it's plain to see that folks benefit by being a part of this fantastic group. I know I do.

You can play down the idea that requiring registration here seems like it might restrict access. But, this forum is thriving because of the truly open exchange of information that it provides. So, doing anything that might have some arguably remote chance of possibly restricting access, no matter how small, would just be flat-out hypocritical.

~ Charlie

 

[Peter Simonsen]

[quote author="alk509"]
I'm re-reading my posts to find exactly where you may have gotten the impression that I "seem to 'see' profit ONLY as in selling the clone", but can't find any such reference. In any case, you'd have to be a bit dim not to realize that there's a difference between profiting from the use of a clone and profiting from the sale of a clone,

You can call it what you what..a "profit" is a "profit" no matter how you try to make it legal..

Peace,
Al.[/quote]

Hi Al..

Sorry if I got you wrong, but is what gave me the impression

True. But the problem is not with "cloning our clones", the problem is with trying to profit from it.

No, we don't. But again, this is not the issue. The issue is in trying to profit from selling someone else's design.

I regard..the "Clone".."design"..etc as the same therefore..

As for clones, the notion that cloning gear takes profit away from the original designer is childish, at best... I don't know any studio owner who would rather make an LA2a clone than buy one, if he/she had the money. And I don't know any client who's gonna come to you because you have an SSL clone, when the studio next door charges the same money and has the real deal.

Sorry I just dont agree with you regarding this..as I know of many proff studio´s that buy the "clones" to save money..everything incl SSL..MANLEY...GML..so dont give that Al..its NOT childish to say the least...I for one which it was..but its the sad truth. ;-)

Kind regards

Peter

 

[Peter Simonsen]

[quote author="alk509"][quote author="thermionic"]Alex makes a great point, although I'm not entirely sure how you'd stop people filling in bogus info.[/quote]

This is irrelevant. People can fill in all the bullshit they want... The point of requiring registration is to log people's IP's. Nothing else.

Peace,
Al.[/quote]

Ahhh and then what..??? I can change my IP within hours I get a new IP..so can a lot of others..no problem...it wont help..;-)

Kind regards

Peter

 

[Guest]

OK, I am off the fence. I vote NO to closing the forum.

Al asks for specifics as to why closing the forum is a bad idea, in terms a little less vague than I posted earlier. Sorry, but I don't know any of the technical jargon required to do this. I don't know the specifics of what code to write to close the doors or what programs are required to screen applicants.

What I do know is how people generally react to situations presented them, and a closed forum will do more to keep out potential contributers that thieves. Now I could give my credentials, curriculum vitie, and vetting for this to "prove" my claim, but I just might be a lying bastard. Anyone smart enough to get a library card could get past the doors to our little closed forum and be off with the Emporer's jewels. Then what? More security? Tighter restrictions? More poeple kept out?

Our focus then shifts from sharing our knowledge with like minded people to protecting our "assets" and intelectual property from pirates.

Who is going to be our watchdog? How much will it cost us in both money for forum support and lost members? How many people will we lock out that are potential contributers or have the next great idea? Of course this is the great unknown.

As for convincing anyone of why not to close this forum, I can't. I can just tell you what my opinion is and hope you at least consider what I say. If you disagree, fine. As long as you have thought the whole thing through. This is an important resource for me and many others. I would not like to see it damaged.

 

[Guest]

First off, I want to thank all of you, I have been lurking here for some time and have learned quite alot. After reading this discussion, I decided to register. The only reason I hadn't before was simply that i haven't had anything much to contribute... I think that making the forum closed wouldn't necessarily be a bad idea if it comforted some of the design contributors. IMHO if you can't be bothered to register on a forum, DIY may not be for you. On the other hand a password protected site for archiving schematics could be set up without too much trouble I believe, and the forum could stay open perhaps making everyone happy. I have not voted, but thought i'd throw in my 2 cents.

 

[JPrisus]

after reading everyone's posts and thinking about this in depth, i still don't understand how registering will deter anyone from attempting to profit from the information available here. Go ahead, make it a registered-only forum, and those people will just register and take what they need! Even if it involved a background check, how many audio geeks have a history of this? We'd be dealing with mostly first-timers who are naive enough to think they can get away with it, when in fact the internet is smaller than people really think it is, and end up just like SMGaudio did (c'mon dude, at least design your own faceplate. Go to some trouble for the profit!)

 

[alk509]

[quote author="thomasholley"]I don't know the specifics of what code to write to close the doors or what programs are required to screen applicants.[/quote]

There's no code or programs or screening to be done. What I thought this was about was simply keeping a log of the IP's of the people who come to the forum. If closing the forum means there's going to be screening done on new members, then I change my vote.

[quote author="thomasholley"]What I do know is how people generally react to situations presented them, and a closed forum will do more to keep out potential contributers that thieves.[/quote]

This may be true, but the argument can be made that not having any kind of log of who comes here is also a sure-fire way to keep contributors out.

[quote author="thomasholley"]Anyone smart enough to get a library card could get past the doors to our little closed forum and be off with the Emporer's jewels. Then what? More security? Tighter restrictions? More poeple kept out?[/quote]

There's no security or restrictions or people kept out by making the forum readable to registered members only. Anybody can still create an account and login and read shit... Again, this is not about protecting anybody's copyrights directly, but about keeping a log of who's in here and from where, so that if a contributor's rights are trampled over, he or she has some kind of documented log to take to court should he/she decide to do so.

[quote author="thomasholley"]Our focus then shifts from sharing our knowledge with like minded people to protecting our "assets" and intelectual property from pirates.[/quote]

No it doesn't. If your assets and intellectual property need protection, don't post them online in the first place!

[quote author="thomasholley"]Who is going to be our watchdog?[/quote]

Watchdog??? No watchdogs. We're just talking about making it so that before you can read the posts you have to create a login and password like you and I have. Same thing that happens in the LUG and the DIY mic Yahoo! group and countless other forums.

[quote author="thomasholley"] How much will it cost us in both money for forum support and lost members? How many people will we lock out that are potential contributers or have the next great idea? Of course this is the great unknown.[/quote]

Huh??? Money??? People locked out??? One of us is getting the wrong impression here, Tom... I haven't seen the first post from anyone saying that there's going to be money charged or any kind of screening process or people getting locked out or anything like that... Once again, if that's what's on the table, then I'm sorry, but I'm changing my vote to a loud, resounding "NO".

[quote author="thomasholley"]As for convincing anyone of why not to close this forum, I can't. I can just tell you what my opinion is and hope you at least consider what I say. If you disagree, fine. As long as you have thought the whole thing through. This is an important resource for me and many others. I would not like to see it damaged.[/quote]

I have thought it through and making the forum readable to registered members only seems like a good idea. I think people need to stop and read ALL the posts on this matter before voting... All that's been proposed is simply making everybody log in before reading the forum because that creates some kind of record of a user's location (IP) and their presence here.

It's true that IP's can be changed and that a scumbag is a scumbag is a scumbag. But doing this does offer at least some level of "protection". I don't think the extra 30 seconds it takes to create a password, or the extra 32Kbytes of storage for a cookie in your browser will keep anybody from registering.

Peace,
Al.

 

[alk509]

[quote author="JPrisus"]after reading everyone's posts and thinking about this in depth, i still don't understand how registering will deter anyone from attempting to profit from the information available here.[/quote]

It won't... read on...

[quote author="JPrisus"]Go ahead, make it a registered-only forum, and those people will just register and take what they need![/quote]

Here's why I support the idea:

Let's assume this SMGaudio guy hadn't come to his senses and basically said "F*CK YOU" to our little internet community, or maybe "Thats not me... must be a different SMGaudio doing that", or if he had just completely ignored the fact that The Lab was pissed off about it. If Jakob wanted to sue the guy (which he could've done), and he had an IP log of this website that shows SMGaudio was here a bunch of times, from an IP in the same city where some mistery company is now selling G9's (or better yet, from an IP in that company's network), he has something with which to go to the authorities and have an investigation opened on the matter.

It's not bullet-proof, but it's at least something and it costs us and other potential members absolutely nothing, only the extra 10 seconds that it takes to create a username and password.

Peace,
Al.

 

[Mbira]

You think having a log of an IP in the same city (or perhaps same ISP) is going to mean anything to anyone?!?

I am much more concerned with PRR's points that we should keep this forum as easy as possible to get into so that the folks with the knowledge still want to come around.

There is very rarely any projects posted on this site anyway. Why doesn't anyone address that point!?

Anyway, this is getting stupid and boring. Signing off...
Joel

 

[Guest]

Al, please. I have read all the posts, and as I said, I have no idea of the technical aspects of closing the forum, and if registration is required before reading it IS closed.

I can't see any benifit in logging IP's since I believe it to be very easy to circumvent. I can not see how not logging is a deterent since we continue to grow to now nearly 700 members (registered).

Taking the time to require people to register IS a deterent to attracting new members. People with little knowledge see it as a sign of unwelcome and they don't come in and learn. and eventually contribute. People with knowledge don't have the opportunity to even see what it is like in here so why would they bother?

I also think that if we take this first step to close the forum, and it dosen't work well, some other, more restrictive measures would be proposed, and on and on...Soon it would cost us all in either time or money or intellect.

I know I have no chance to sway your thinking on closing the forum. I really am not trying to. You just used what I said earlier, when I was fence setting, as a stepping stone to advance your argument so I was mearly trying to clarify my thoughts and present my views, after reading all the previous posts and carefully considering all sides of the issue. I voted for a continued open forum. I am not attacking you or your views on this, I simply disagree with your premise.

 

[PRR]

> If Jakob wanted to sue the guy (which he could've done), and he had an IP log of this website that shows SMGaudio was here a bunch of times, from an IP in the same city where some mistery company is now selling G9's (or better yet, from an IP in that company's network)

Note that we already have that. Ethan's and Jakob's webservers log all hits and the IPs (or should). FWIW, I could go into my webserver logs and know what IPs have been reading my illustrated posts.

The only thing registration adds is a "name" to go with the IP number. We have not required, and could not possibly enforce, Real Names. And an email address, but real scumbags use disposable email accounts.

> .....he has something with which to go to the authorities and have an investigation opened on the matter.

I don't think forum registration would give ANY benefit in cases like this.

Copyright infringement is hardly a crime. Technically it is, but it is always handled as a civil suit with bonus criminal charge. It is up to the person claiming infringement to gather evidence and show any damages. Ideally the crime investigation system would help; in reality they are up to their neck in "real crime" and won't have time to look into this. And most ISPs won't open their IP logs without a court order. While you can get such an order in civil cases, the judge would want to see persuading evidence and significant economics before ordering such an invasion of privacy.

 

[tony dB]

didn't follow the topic so far (lack of time-will read tonight)
but just for AL

I mean by closing the doors that i wouldn't have found out about this (well the previous) place. Since this teaching me equal quality as my school education 25 years ago, i consider this place and the people here as a highlevel educational value!

In case google would not reveal anything about this, i would be dreaming instead of diying

Tony

 

[rlantis]

History has clearly shown that when the information Nazis go to work, deciding who does and who doesn't get to share information (thereby essentially fostering dis-information), the whole community suffers.
The cornerstone of this forum is an open and vigorous discourse among all who care to contribute; and yes, to enlighten, stimulate, and encourage those who choose to lurk. The goal is to share and develop better audio, and/or just plain have fun building and learning through the challenge of DIY and all levels of expertise.

Please, let's not hobble the process. In order to truly participate, one must register anyway, so the sky is not falling. We're not here to turn DIY into a profit-making corporation.

If someone thinks that they can make a successful business based upon ideas presented here, I say "more power to them!" LET them advance the state of audio technology and make it available to anyone with the need and the bucks. I'm not talking about "group buys" and sharing the fruits of developing convenient kits and such, but REAL tax-reporting registered audio companies. Just keep commercial activities out of this forum in order to allow the forum to remain an easy-breathing, creative-thinking, and fun foray for audio pros and amateurs.

Likewise, if someone has an idea that they think they might like to turn into a profit-making enterprise, then simply don't share it here, if you want it entirely to yourself. Let's just be responsible adults, and the best will always eventually fall into place.

 

[JPrisus]

It's tough to find fault in what Bob just said. I'm inclined to agree 100%, as it presents a different view of things that hasn't been discussed much.

 

[microx]

Many years ago when I was working for a TV rental company I was called to a social club which had one of our TVs in the bar. It had been stolen and I was asked what could be done security wise. I made some sugestions and then the barman, who was Irish, said "well I think it's our fault for putting it where everyone can see it"
Where else would you put a TV and how else do you have a forum like this.
Registered or not if some amoral person wants to steal the design for profit he will.
Steve

 

[HappyTom]

I can't see how the registering will do any good. If I find a forum of my interest and I have to register to take part of the info in there I'll just push the "back"-button and search for some other place for my interest.

If the issue is "Don't steal our/my/his/her work"... Well the only solution is to put the shematics/gerbers/partlists off the web.
But that would be a pretty bad solution..

The next thief might not even know what The Lab is as all the shematics and info is to be found on webpages outside of this forum.

Cheers (or as we say in Sweden: Botten upp och resten i skägget)
HT

BTW I'll vote for a big NO NO in this poll.