So yeah, the PC people have won once again..

[boji]

puts out his "Hey guys, girls just must not like STEM due to biology!" hot takes.

I'm almost certain he has never said or thought this, ever.  Nor would he be a sucker for post hoc ergo propter hoc. However that is exactly how hit pieces have painted him.

In an increasingly egalitarian society women don't necessarily prefer math professions over... what? Nursing? Train conducting?  I heard it to be a comparative argument, not a stem-exclusionary argument.

From vox article:

"His study is among a growing body of research that suggests what we often think of as a gender pay gap is more accurately discussed as a childbearing pay gap or motherhood penalty."

Wish we framed nurturing as an investment!  :'( 

 

[user 37518]

You are doing exactly what Jordan Peterson does, which is drawing a false conclusion (women are self-selecting away from STEM) from a set of true premises (that women are just as capable in technology as men).

Let's demonstrate:  let's go back and observe pharmacy education and practice in the Jim Crow south.  There are very few black men enrolled in pharmacy programs in college, and perhaps only handful of black pharmacists practicing.  We must therefore conclude that black men have self-selected away from medical professions? Or is it possible that there are other feedback mechanisms at work that are defining the overall system response?

If it was as simple as laws that barred women from attending STEM programs then the points of debate would be very clear.  Unfortunately, the poles and zeros of this system are pernicious and baked right into the current fabric of society, which is why we have to have these debates.

The real question that should be asked here is:  why do you have so few women in your EE classes?  In order to understand this we need to be willing to examine everything that led up to the college admissions progress, including:  what was offered in high school?  What opportunities were present in elementary school?  How does society present (and depict) valid career paths to young girls?  This is exactly what Peterson almost never does, when he puts out his "Hey guys, girls just must not like STEM due to biology!" hot takes.

What about medicine? I think society depicts being a doctor as something aceptable, do you agree? In case of medicine you have a much higher degree of women participation, i do not know the female to men ratio but i would consider it to be very different than in the case of STEM. So there are more opportunities being offered in high school for women to study medicine rather than physics? Is it just because their biology programs are better than their science programs? I don't buy it. Lets look at universities, i've read that if you are woman you have higher chances to get into a university STEM program, this is not a conspiracy theory, universities are openly saying this, so if you are a woman you already have an advantage to go into STEM why so few of them? they are promoting women into STEM, the offer is there, there is just no demand

There is huge effort within highschools and universities to promote women into STEM, Conferences, talks, programs, etc, they are just not doing it.

Even within the women who do study engineering there are some majors with more women, for instance engeneering majors having todo do with ecology or sustainability, the more administrative engineering programs like industrial engineering, or engineering programs having to do with biology or bionics and such have a much higher degree of participation from women than ME, EE, material science, aerospace and so on, so you have to agree there is a preference aspect to it

I really do not want to go into the pay gap topic, but I agree with boji and his quote from the vox article, I've seen it with my own eyes. My best friend, his wife was an extremely succesful and high income lawyer working for the federal goverment she earned a lot more money than my friend did, she worked for like 10 years, as soon as she got pregnant in her mid thirties she quit her job, now their child is around 4 years old and she is not going back to work because she decided to become a full time mom, Jordan Petereson uses exactly this same analogy, he in fact uses female lawyers as an example, when I heard him I couldn't believe it

 

[Dreams]

Not really sure why I'm even gonna bother with this, but since you asked,

What brute force argument? What exactly do you find so off base?

You use a lot of words to say 'i do not respect women'

I never insulted or offended anyone,

That you don't see it is a core part of the problem

shut up doesn't contribute that much

Kinda does though!

you don't have to read it or participate if you don't agree.

I (and others!) find some of the opinions you've expressed here harmful, and what you're saying is basically 'you should just ignore it' which is basically 'shut up' wrapped in a polite veneer. I'm not going to ignore it, and I don't see why i should be nice to you about your hateful perspective

I think you have just proven my point, cancel culture is alive and well,

Stop being dramatic. I'm just some person on an internet message board telling you your opinions are bad

you say something people don't like and they just tell you to shut up, that was the entire point of why I started this thread.

Yep you said something i don't like, and i'm telling you to shut up. If i thought you were interested in learning or growing i might have engaged with you but I've seen this kind of thing enough times in enough other spaces to know that you aren't, and also where this kind of thing, left unchallenged, leads to

As you say elsewhere, your "opponent"

Please link me to where i used the term "opponent" because I'm not sure what you're referring to. If i said that, then ok, but i don't appreciate having words put in my mouth

Dreaming is not an excuse for trolling.

I understand that I'm kicking a hornets nest, but trolling? No. I'm only saying any of this because I've found this forum over the years (since the prodigy pro days!) to be an exceptionally respectful place to go, and i'd like it to remain that way. If you or the other mods do not understand how user 37518's uh, rants this week run contrary to that, then maybe you should consider finding a new additional mod who does

 

[Dreams]

this is all just so exhausting

 

[Dreams]

like this thread started over a website changing their stupid name

ask yourself why someone might feel threatened by that

 

[Dreams]

The real question that should be asked here is:  why do you have so few women in your EE classes?

This really gets to the heart of it, to me. For the reasons Matador said, but also, do user 37518 (or others) consider themselves a representative example? Considering another person's perspective is difficult on a good day, impossible if you don't even bother to listen

 

[Dreams]

I've never met user 37518, and i hope this isn't or doesn't appear to be a personal attack. I'm sure they have many positive things to offer (i've even seen some of them here) but this thread isn't one of em

 

[user 37518]

Dreams, I appreciate that you expressed your point of view, it is much better than just saying shut up. You also say that you don't appreciate having words put in your mouth, yet you say I said "I don't respect women" which In fact I never said, so I also do not appreciate having words put in my mouth, and let me clarify I do not think that way, the most important person in my life is my mother, I believe in equality of opportunity, but I expressed why I think women are not going into STEM fields, and you didn't like my opinion, that is ok.

I also said that today social judment is more important than proof and I believe that, like I mentioned in my post about the tennis shoes, rob_gould said both Gearslutz and the shoe campaign were both innapropriate, yet that is not how society percieves it. I'm all in for equallity, but I don't think that modern feminism is about equality anymore.

I do not take as a personal attack against me what you have posted, I believe anyone is entitled to their own opinion, in fact, more power to you, that is what I am trying to promote, I am against cancel culture, if you want to oppose me using valid arguments, please do so, that is free speech.

And again, I reiterate, if there is an active female member here in the forum, I would love to hear her input.

This really gets to the heart of it, to me. For the reasons Matador said, but also, do user 37518 (or others) consider themselves a representative example?

I would say yes, I consider myself a representative example, I've been an engineering teacher for 10 years now, I think I have enough experience to form an opinion on this matter. I am not talking out of my ass, I am saying what I see every day and every semester I teach. And believe me, I do not undermine my female students, and I have never had any complaints from female (or male) students claiming that, in fact quite the opposite.

 

[rob_gould]

like I mentioned in my post about the tennis shoes, rob_gould said both Gearslutz and the shoe campaign were both innapropriate, yet that is not how society percieves it.

Who says?  There's a lot of conflation between opinion and objective research happening here.  Stuff like this

I don't need a damn academic study to tell me about what I see every day.

That's anecdotal evidence. Someone more articulate than me will surely sum it up better, but just because it's happening at the end of your nose doesn't mean it's true for everyone.

This post I've read this several times, and I still don't know what point you're trying to make, but it's easy to infer a lot of negative feeling from what you wrote.  What exactly don't you believe? 

I really do not want to go into the pay gap topic, but I agree with boji and his quote from the vox article, I've seen it with my own eyes. My best friend, his wife was an extremely succesful and high income lawyer working for the federal goverment she earned a lot more money than my friend did, she worked for like 10 years, as soon as she got pregnant in her mid thirties she quit her job, now their child is around 4 years old and she is not going back to work because she decided to become a full time mom, Jordan Petereson uses exactly this same analogy, he in fact uses female lawyers as an example, when I heard him I couldn't believe it

I'm really curious what you don't like about this.

 

[fazer]

There is a problem with being in a world wide brewery verses  being in an actual bar with a small group of face to face  friends.  Also drinking and posting seems to create problems with posting.  ;D

I got into it with dreams posting the word balls which when I apply the paragraph above makes offensive sense to me.  You feel connected to people from all the technical advice that floats around here. But you really have no clue and then there’s woke which is ok in a utopia but hard to swallow for many that don’t see or live in an imaginary world. 

I would like to set down and have a beer with dual flip.  But this conversation has been overtaken by the SJW and is now impossible to have on a social site.  So I guess a pm message to a select group might be an answer or just go find some friends to have an actual beer with. 

Also user 37518,  dreams is listed as female in the profile incase you didn’t notice.  I’ve checked this before 2 years ago and there’s more going on here than you realize.  For those reasons I suppose  we should be respectful. 

But really just stay away from topics in the brewery if you don’t like the content.  It’s hard but doable. 

 

[shabtek]

I have tried to ignore this thread but thought I'd share a tidbit,

looking at wikipedia today, the heading reads: "celebrate international women day; help close the knowledge gender gap..."

this relates to a sentiment express above.

is it possible that the concept of a 'knowledge gender gap' is a patriarchal construct?

I am sure there exists a corollary knowledge gap, that us boys don't find all that interesting or valuable and so have dismissed

is it too thin skinned of me to be offended by the assertion that there exists a knowledge gap?

and where does this battle put the score in the PC war?

 

[fazer]

The knowledge gap

Women will never be equal to men until they can walk down the street with a bald head and a beer gut, and still think they are sexy.

 

[user 37518]

Who says?  There's a lot of conflation between opinion and objective research happening here.  Stuff like this

This guy explains it best https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r11Vl0zrrcM

I'm really curious what you don't like about this.

Absolutely nothing, what I am trying to say is that the theory that women can't get into high earning paying jobs has to take into account the decision of some women choosing to become mothers.

 

[user 37518]

There is a problem with being in a world wide brewery verses  being in an actual bar with a small group of face to face  friends.  Also drinking and posting seems to create problems with posting.  ;D

I got into it with dreams posting the word balls which when I apply the paragraph above makes offensive sense to me.  You feel connected to people from all the technical advice that floats around here. But you really have no clue and then there’s woke which is ok in a utopia but hard to swallow for many that don’t see or live in an imaginary world. 

I would like to set down and have a beer with dual flip.  But this conversation has been overtaken by the SJW and is now impossible to have on a social site.  So I guess a pm message to a select group might be an answer or just go find some friends to have an actual beer with. 

Also user 37518,  dreams is listed as female in the profile incase you didn’t notice.  I’ve checked this before 2 years ago and there’s more going on here than you realize.  For those reasons I suppose  we should be respectful. 

But really just stay away from topics in the brewery if you don’t like the content.  It’s hard but doable.

Couldn't agree with you more.

I didn't notice Dreams is listed as a female, I wonder why she didn't mention it, it would have been relevant.

 

[boji]

is it possible that the concept of a 'knowledge gender gap' is a patriarchal construct?

"If Wikipedia wants to become the sum of human knowledge, [women biographies > 20%] needs to occur."

'knowledge gender gap' looks to be a hamfisted way of saying they seek to increase content equality measured by gender.

This would make it a corporate non-profit advertising construct. 

 

[L´Andratté]

This is a good example of short sighted actionism (does that word make sense?)

We don´t need to boost female representation on Wikipedia, we need equal rights/status for woman in our
society and Wikipedia and everything else will follow by itself.

People get off Youtube, FB, twitter, influencing your minds with whatever "sounds" right, do the thinking yourself, stop venting grievances, stop feeling bad, work on yourself, don´t fixate on the bullshit from all sides, fighting symptoms of unrecognized underlying problems.
Focus on yourself, try to see the good on all sides, try to be constructive, ffs be a man that goes his own way, but don´t blame anyone for it, if it doesn´t seem to be what you really want to do...

There are idiots or/and assholes in horrendous numbers in all groups of people you like to focus on, fighting them simply means empowering them, just give a better example and they will wither away.

I really really don´t want to play the smartypants here, but I also really really think everybody gives his own testimony. Life is a spiritual journey***, don´t waste your time on pwer play or loathing this or that.

OVER AND OUT

*** apologies for posting this on an engineer´s forum ;D

 

[user 37518]

This is a good example of short sighted actionism (does that word make sense?)

We don´t need to boost female representation on Wikipedia, we need equal rights/status for woman in our
society and Wikipedia and everything else will follow by itself.

Completely agree with you, but what about equal men's rights in matters of child custody in which 90% its granted to women, what about alimony and divorce settlements which favor women in an extreme way? isn't that important aswell? what about military service? in my country it is only for men, which means that in the unlike event that we go to war, I have to go to fight and women get to stay, why are they not making a fuzz about that? after all, if its equality we are after, we should be equal in every matter....

 

[hodad]

Absolutely nothing, what I am trying to say is that the theory that women can't get into high earning paying jobs has to take into account the decision of some women choosing to become mothers.

But that's a grotesque oversimplification.  What if women are paid less/promoted less because of the expectation that they might take time off to have a kid?  There's also the issue that fields that women have historically gravitated to tend to pay less.  It doesn't consider whether social biases might push women toward certain jobs or away from others--or the fact that walking into a room and being the only woman (or vice versa) can be daunting and discouraging at times.  It's also worth considering whether workplace structures and systems aren't themselves gender-biased, originating as they do from a time when men dominated the workforce. 

I'm not one to argue against natural gender differences (though I think it's much more of a spectrum than some sort of set of well-defined rules), but ignoring the social and cultural issues means you're missing a huge part of the big picture.

 

[user 37518]

But that's a grotesque oversimplification.  What if women are paid less/promoted less because of the expectation that they might take time off to have a kid?  There's also the issue that fields that women have historically gravitated to tend to pay less.  It doesn't consider whether social biases might push women toward certain jobs or away from others--or the fact that walking into a room and being the only woman (or vice versa) can be daunting and discouraging at times.  It's also worth considering whether workplace structures and systems aren't themselves gender-biased, originating as they do from a time when men dominated the workforce. 

I'm not one to argue against natural gender differences (though I think it's much more of a spectrum than some sort of set of well-defined rules), but ignoring the social and cultural issues means you're missing a huge part of the big picture.

Agreed, all I'm saying is that those on top of what you just said, they should also have to take into account that some women leave or do not want to work because of motherhood, and there is nothing wrong with that.

Anyway, that is why I didn't want to discuss the pay gap, this thread has derailed through multiple topics, PC, feminism, gender, etc... my main point stands, there is a cancel culture and social judgment and that was my point with my original post.

 

[ruffrecords]

Agreed, all I'm saying is that those on top of what you just said, they should also have to take into account that some women leave or do not want to work because of motherhood, and there is nothing wrong with that.

Absolutely. I have first hand experience of this. Both my wife and I are strong believers that the formative years of a child's life are the most important so we decided when we had kids that she would be a full time mother. She was a first class home maker. She also ferried the children of several middle class working mothers to and from school, to dental and doctors appointments without complaint. Yet those same women were always pressurising her to go back out to work. She felt like she was being bullied. OK our kids did not turn out perfect but we had no drug addiction or teenage pregnancies that seemed par for the course for many of our neighbours.

Cheers

Ian