So yeah, the PC people have won once again..

[user 37518]

glad to see that you can still argue over pointless BS without my help.

JR

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D thanks John for bringing in some comedy and clarity into the discussion.

 

[user 37518]

There's a lot of (very tasteful) fluff, so maybe sit back and crack open a beer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1xxcKCGljY&ab_channel=ContraPoints

I also wouldn't particularly describe it as very tasteful, the first 10 minutes I failed to distinguish if it was comedy a critique or a parody or what? basically the first 10 minutes were useless, then she started making some points after that, some things I agree, but in the end it left me in doubt on what exactly is she trying to say, there is just too much sarcasm and bad comedy there to figure out the real message. It wasn't until around halfway through the video that I realized she is a young trans woman, not exactly the voice of experience if I may say...

 

[PermO]

Halfway trough ? 


Oh man, it just took me 3 sec to figure, ok, rule 2 applies here  ;D

 

[boji]

Really interesting how the tone of the comments toward me shifted

Hashtag justice and offense snipers put fear into everyone, including the nice people.

i'm tired of that sh*t

Compassion and empathy might make a friend out of an enemy. Worse case the person looking for a fight won't find an opponent.

Judgement will create opposition, counterpunching, and coaches. So many team coaches.

 

[rob_gould]

There's a lot of (very tasteful) fluff, so maybe sit back and crack open a beer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1xxcKCGljY&ab_channel=ContraPoints

Thanks, didn't know about this channel.  That was well worth a watch, and certainly relevant to this thread

 

[user 37518]

Halfway trough ? 


Oh man, it just took me 3 sec to figure, ok, rule 2 applies here  ;D

Yeap, probably another reason why I am so oblivious when it comes to women, or like she said "She has the best plastic surgeon in the world" hahaha, I guess I am the kinda guy you hear about that finds out too late that the girl he is about to sleep with has a surprise... I saw another video of her and in that one it was obvious that she was trans but the first video didn't seem obvious to me, even when she was wearing her lingerie....  Like this miss spain or something like that which is trans, duuuude its really hard to tell, only when you find out she is trans you say "ohhh yeah, I see it", its like when the magician explains the trick and you are like "ohh yeah its so obvious", but it wasn't that obvious at first!

 

[PermO]

It's not a physical appearance thing for me...

I's a "vibe" I pick up on immediately, I can't explain, it's this "something's off here" thing kicking in.

Oh, and that tone of voice, it's an act, I can't listen to that, I really can't.

Everybody should be what they want to be, as long as they are themselves and leave me out of it I'm fine.
But cults and ..isms always have something to sell, there's always this undefined "greater good" that everybody should be a part of,... I'm not buying it.

If you want to find illumination, you are on your own, things work best on your own, I like it that way.

The greatest things (art / inventions) always come from a person, the greatest horors are allways the result of group madness.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions, but you can also walk the other way.


Cheers dude !

 

[hodad]

The greatest things (art / inventions) always come from a person, the greatest horors are allways the result of group madness.

Yes, let's dismiss out of hand any movements with "ism" attached to them---dadaism, surrealism, cubism.  Complete failures all. 

And speaking of group madness:  the "horrors" of John, Paul, George, and Ringo were truly abominable. 

 

[PermO]

You can like or dismiss anything you want, it's not my business to be the judge on that.

Also, I'm not telling you to do anything...

Go play your Beatles records, as long as you don't force me to listen to them I'm fine.

I'm also free to like or dismiss anything I want, or simply see it for what it is... cult.

Cult can be cool, cult can be crazy, cult can be outright dangerous and horrific... but it's still cult, it's all cult, and non of it will lead to the promised salvation.



Fnord  ;D

 

[user 37518]

The greatest things (art / inventions) always come from a person, the greatest horors are allways the result of group madness.

I do not completely agree with what you say, I would say that in general, both the greatest things AND the greatest horrors are a result of a group. Yeah you have the ocassional Isaac Newton or Leonardo Da Vinci, but most of the greatest things in humanity were made by a collective, the great example is Bell Labs, the world we live in today wouldn't be the same without Bell Labs, and that is the result of a community of scientists, the transistor was invented by a group of people at Bell Labs, even if some invention is attributed to single person, there are in most cases a lot of people working with that person who had their part on the discovery, maybe it was their thesis advisor, their lab colleagues, their mentor, the university, etc...

It is actually quite rare to find some great discovery from someone in complete isolation, there are some exceptions of course, for example the guy who proved Fermat's last theorem worked completely in isolation for 10 years without telling anyone because it was basically taboo in the math community trying to solve that problem, but even after he thought he had proof, he presented it to the academic community and they pointed at an error, and to correct it he had to resort to his PhD student to polish things up and help him finish it up.

So I believe that being part of a group is not necessarilly a bad thing, the problem is when you lose your individuality and critical thinking, when the group becomes comes before the individual, that is the problem, and thats basically what I see today and why I made the comments I made.

 

[fazer]

This is the advice my grandpa gave me when I was a teen;

"Never buy anything that ends with ..ism"
"Never trust a guy in a dress"
"Never be offended, whatever life trows at you, never be offended"

I would have to of liked to meet  your grandpa

 

[hodad]

You can like or dismiss anything you want,

Well, apparently you can like or dismiss anything you want simply because of how it's accomplished.  Putting a man on the moon or a rover on mars, the creation of Apple Computers.  Or vast swaths of the software we use, the video games we (might) play, television shows and films....the list goes on.  Your argument is flippant, disingenuous, uninformed, or just plain wrongheaded. 

Which is fine, I suppose.

 

[PermO]

I do not completely agree with what you say, I would say that in general, both the greatest things AND the greatest horrors are a result of a group. Yeah you have the ocassional Isaac Newton or Leonardo Da Vinci, but most of the greatest things in humanity were made by a collective, the great example is Bell Labs, the world we live in today wouldn't be the same without Bell Labs, and that is the result of a community of scientists, the transistor was invented by a group of people at Bell Labs, even if some invention is attributed to single person, there are in most cases a lot of people working with that person who had their part on the discovery, maybe it was their thesis advisor, their lab colleagues, their mentor, the university, etc...

It is actually quite rare to find some great discovery from someone in complete isolation, there are some exceptions of course, for example the guy who proved Fermat's last theorem worked completely in isolation for 10 years without telling anyone because it was basically taboo in the math community trying to solve that problem, but even after he thought he had proof, he presented it to the academic community and they pointed at an error, and to correct it he had to resort to his PhD student to polish things up and help him finish it up.

So I believe that being part of a group is not necessarilly a bad thing, the problem is when you lose your individuality and critical thinking, when the group becomes comes before the individual, that is the problem, and thats basically what I see today and why I made the comments I made.

Well you do have a point and more nuance could be applied.

Sometimes a dream team can be formed, yes, and great things happen.
When you have a team of brilliant individuals that each can stand on their own and don't need to be part of a team to be succesfull, that's when it potentially works.

Same goes with relationships, you can only live with someone else if you can live with yourself.

Regarding academia as a whole,... it gets the cult label, sorry  ;D
The gowns and the funny hats, rite of passage, sorry dude, that's "scientific" proof of a cult isn't it ?


Oh, and people finding the greatest discoverys in isolation is not a rare thing,... you'll simply won't hear about it, that's all.

As the best things are always kept secret.

 

[PermO]

Well, apparently you can like or dismiss anything you want simply because of how it's accomplished.  Putting a man on the moon or a rover on mars, the creation of Apple Computers.  Or vast swaths of the software we use, the video games we (might) play, television shows and films....the list goes on.  Your argument is flippant, disingenuous, uninformed, or just plain wrongheaded. 

Which is fine, I suppose.

Yes it is...

It may be of great importance to you, it's all rather futile to me...

Sorry if this upsets you.

 

[user 37518]

Regarding academia as a whole,... it gets the cult label, sorry  ;D
The gowns and the funny hats, rite of passage, sorry dude, that's "scientific" proof of a cult isn't it ?

;D ;D being an academic myself I have to agree its kinda funny and true what you say.

 

[boji]

the best things are always kept secret

For a time, or until something better comes around. (SR-71 comes to mind)

 

[user 37518]

Oh, and people finding the greatest discoverys in isolation is not a rare thing,... you'll simply won't hear about it, that's all.

As the best things are always kept secret.

Yes, but most of those things are not created individually or in isolation, one thing is something being secret, and another is the product of a single man, the internet was created by DARPA AFAIK, it wasn't like a single man, but it was secret. Even those who invented or discovered something by themselves say "I am just standing on the shoulders of giants", in other words, no man is an island, we all need each other for progress, you always continue the work of others or a collective, Maxwell who I think is one of the greatest not recognized genious made his equations not in isolation but with theories, experiments and contributions from Faraday and many others. It is said that someone asked Einstein, "Do you stand on the shoulders of Newton?" and he said "No, I stand on the shoulders of Maxwell".

Also being part of a group is not always bad, lets talk about music, Johan Sebastian Bach, he was the chapelmeister and organist of a lutheran church, most of his work was made for the church, there is a famous quote by Bach "The aim and final end of all music should be none other than the glory of God and the refreshment of the soul", you can't get more religious, sectarian or part of a group than that, however he also wrote secular music, but as András Schiff mentions "Even when you hear Bach's secular works you can hear this is not the music made by an atheist", on the other hand you have Brahms and Tchaikovsky and many other who were atheist and did not belong to any particular group, and they were also brilliant.

The guys who founded Fairchild semiconductor were called the Traitorous eight, they were exaclty that, 8 dudes, and they became some of the most influential pioneers of electronics. So again, I wouldn't dare to say that the best things in history were made by a single individual or someone who didn't belong to a group but we don't know about it because its kept secret.

On the other hand I could argue that the biggest mass shooting in the US history was the product of a single man, Stephen Paddock, who did it in isolation, all by himself, for no apparent reason or ideology, and there are many similar examples. So no, I do not believe that groups = bad and single individuals = good. That is an overgeneralization. We just have to acknowledge that there are some good and some really f**ked up individuals out there, however, I do have to admit that its worse to have a big group of people who follow a sick guy, rather than him acting individually just for the fact that they can cause more damage, but that is also the case with the good things or the good guys, doctors without borders make more good things because there are many of them, a group, rather than single individuals.

Also, I do not want to criticize your grand pa's advice, but the phrase "Do not believe anything that ends in -ism" is also not always true, what about Darwinism? should we deny that?

"Do not trust anyone who wears a dress", I guess the scotish are out of the question then... what about the hindus who use a kurta, which can be considered a dress, so do not trust the indians, BTW, in my youth I was into hindu culture and I used to wear kurtas and thats exactly what people told me back then "Hey, nice dress"

I think your grandpa made a lot of sense, and those are some catchy phrases, but should not be considered commandments. The only one I consider to be completely true is the last one about not being offended. I think that what he was actually trying to say is "Never buy anything that is a religion or an extreme ideology" and "Never trust a priest or clerical", I think that would've been more accurate if that is what he was trying to teach you.

 

[PermO]

For a time, or until something better comes around. (SR-71 comes to mind)

It was probably "the best thing" if you are out to kill a bunch of people... yes.

Defenitely not the "thing" I am talking about here.

And I bet it was not the work of an individual.

 

[PermO]

Yes, but most of those things are not created individually or in isolation, one thing is something being secret, and another is the product of a single man, the internet was created by DARPA AFAIK, it wasn't like a single man, but it was secret. Even those who invented or discovered something by themselves say "I am just standing on the shoulders of giants", in other words, no man is an island, we all need each other for progress, you always continue the work of others or a collective, Maxwell who I think is one of the greatest not recognized genious made his equations not in isolation but with theories, experiments and contributions from Faraday and many others. It is said that someone asked Einstein, "Do you stand on the shoulders of Newton?" and he said "No, I stand on the shoulders of Maxwell".

How can you not mention Tesla ?
Tesla, Maxwell, Heavyside, Steinmetz, Farraday, Farnsworth... those guys were absolutely brilliant,... and many others, yes I fully agree.
The contribution of these people to the world is amazing, absolutely amazing.

But, and now we are getting in cospiracy land,... you probably also know the story that these guys at some point were stopped in their way ?
They were out on their way to illuminate the whole planet, and 'forces' came in and sayd "sorry, we can't have that"

I don't know if this is the truth, but to me, it defenitely could be true.

Also being part of a group is not always bad, lets talk about music, Johan Sebastian Bach, he was the chapelmeister and organist of a lutheran church, most of his work was made for the church, there is a famous quote by Bach "The aim and final end of all music should be none other than the glory of God and the refreshment of the soul", you can't get more religious, sectarian or part of a group than that, however he also wrote secular music, but as András Schiff mentions "Even when you hear Bach's secular works you can hear this is not the music made by an atheist", on the other hand you have Brahms and Tchaikovsky and many other who were atheist and did not belong to any particular group, and they were also brilliant.

No matter how many people were around him to support him, if Bach was not born we would not have Bach music, it's that simple. The same goes for the dadaism, surealism, it starts with one guy, doing something brilliant, wich get recognised by other brilliant mids for what it is and they say "oh wow, that's awesome, I'm going to do this also" and now it's a cult, nothing wrong with that, it can stil be cool and awesome.
But my interest is with that first guy, who "received that inspirational spark" and did it...

The guys who founded Fairchild semiconductor were called the Traitorous eight, they were exaclty that, 8 dudes, and they became some of the most influential pioneers of electronics. So again, I wouldn't dare to say that the best things in history were made by a single individual or someone who didn't belong to a group but we don't know about it because its kept secret.

I agree Fairchild is awesome, I wish I had a couple of units.
But if you are not into music production you'll be like "what ? .. who ? .. I don't care"

On the other hand I could argue that the biggest mass shooting in the US history was the product of a single man, Stephen Paddock, who did it in isolation, all by himself, for no apparent reason or ideology, and there are many similar examples. So no, I do not believe that groups = bad and single individuals = good. That is an overgeneralization. We just have to acknowledge that there are some good and some really f**ked up individuals out there, however, I do have to admit that its worse to have a big group of people who follow a sick guy, rather than him acting individually just for the fact that they can cause more damage, but that is also the case with the good things or the good guys, doctors without borders make more good things because there are many of them, a group, rather than single individuals.

One guy can do a lot of damage, yes it's very sad, and I really feel for those people  who have lost their loved ones.
But really...
It is of no comparisson to the genocides that have killed millions and millions of people in the name of Islam, Christianity, Catholisism, Marxism, Capitalism, Communism and many other isms... oh and should not forget "democracy"

Also, I do not want to criticize your grand pa's advice, but the phrase "Do not believe anything that ends in -ism" is also not always true, what about Darwinism? should we deny that?

We should not do anything... see, that's the main problem.
You, should just do whatever pleases you, whatever gets your groove on.
Don't worry about "the collective" ... "the collective" has booked a one way ticket to hell, I personally think it's simply best to leave "the collective" if you want to "save yourself" but that's just how I feel about it.

Darwin was a smart guy, and some of it makes a lot of sense... but it's defenitely not a "end all" theory... It's a theory, just that, see it for what it is, nothing more.
Believe it or don't believe it, that's the choice you have.

"Do not trust anyone who wears a dress", I guess the scotish are out of the question then... what about the hindus who use a kurta, which can be considered a dress, so do not trust the indians, BTW, in my youth I was into hindu culture and I used to wear kurtas and thats exactly what people told me back then "Hey, nice dress"

I think your grandpa made a lot of sense, and those are some catchy phrases, but should not be considered commandments. The only one I consider to be completely true is the last one about not being offended. I think that what he was actually trying to say is "Never buy anything that is a religion or an extreme ideology" and "Never trust a priest or clerical", I think that would've been more accurate if that is what he was trying to teach you.

Yes of course nuance needs to be applied.

But what do you do ? ... you give your grandson a 33000 pages peer reviewed thesis on life ?
Or would you sum it all up in three humorous catchfrazes that you will have to mention only once and they will stick with him forever ?

You're defenitly an academic, I think you have a tendency to overthink things a bit.
But I feel you are a very nice guy.

And regarding "that individual secret" you think of things, people inventing physical objects or scientific theory... I'm not talking about that.
Things are cool, science has brought us many conveiniances to make life easyer for us, though it does not always work out the way it was intended lol.

What if there was a switch inside you, and when you flip it, *poof*  all the madness is gone.. I'd rather have that than a SR-71, trust me, it is way way way more powerfull.
The SR-71 becomes a complete joke when you find the switch.

Pardon my spelling as English is not my first language and I often find it hard to find the right words to adress complicated subjects like this.

But thanks for the conversation !

 

[JohnRoberts]

I do not completely agree with what you say, I would say that in general, both the greatest things AND the greatest horrors are a result of a group.

of course it takes a group to to make a large mess...

Yeah you have the ocassional Isaac Newton or Leonardo Da Vinci, but most of the greatest things in humanity were made by a collective,

History is full of examples of individual achievements.

While not very historic I have 9 patents, and with 8 of them I was the sole inventor. The one involving co-inventors was a heat sink invention assigned to Peavey, after I was no longer working as an engineer, so it much easier to pursue inside the company with two engineer co-inventors cooperating who were actually tasked with solving such problems. 

It is the result of a community of scientists, the transistor was invented by a group of people at Bell Labs, even if some invention is attributed to single person, there are in most cases a lot of people working with that person who had their part on the discovery, maybe it was their thesis advisor, their lab colleagues, their mentor, the university, etc...

or me, myself, and I....

It is actually quite rare to find some great discovery from someone in complete isolation, there are some exceptions of course, for example the guy who proved Fermat's last theorem worked completely in isolation for 10 years without telling anyone because it was basically taboo in the math community trying to solve that problem, but even after he thought he had proof, he presented it to the academic community and they pointed at an error, and to correct it he had to resort to his PhD student to polish things up and help him finish it up.

So I believe that being part of a group is not necessarilly a bad thing, the problem is when you lose your individuality and critical thinking, when the group becomes comes before the individual, that is the problem, and thats basically what I see today and why I made the comments I made.

Critical thinking is important for individuals too...

I like the old Groucho quote "I refuse to join any club that would have me..." - Groucho Marx

Of course joining a forum like GDIY is the exception (so far).

JR