Soliloqueen's k87(k67) and k47 capsules

[soliloqueen]

Even if it's two different takes, the same microphone in a well-treated room will never give such a difference in frequency response.
Clearly, soliloqueen's capsule differs from the original Neuman. And different doesn't mean inferior!

Not to say that the capsules aren't different (they are very different. my reference capsule is much different than any recent K67 or K87. It doesn't even have the same chamber size) but this isn't really how it works. "Frequency response" doesn't exist in the sense that you're using it here...The two capsules respond differently to the space because they have moderately different proximity and polar behavior, even if they had the same FR in free field. That's if everything else was matched, which it wasn't.

 

[elskardio]

Not to say that the capsules aren't different (they are very different. my reference capsule is much different than any recent K67 or K87. It doesn't even have the same chamber size) but this isn't really how it works. "Frequency response" doesn't exist in the sense that you're using it here...The two capsules respond differently to the space because they have moderately different proximity and polar behavior, even if they had the same FR in free field. That's if everything else was matched, which it wasn't.

Of course if you change the microphone placement, the frequency response will change... but if you reproduce the same condition it should be pretty close from one take to the other.
I've been working with voice actors for the past 15 years and we record dialog lines over multiple months. I can randomly pick any 2 takes and they will sound pretty close.

 

[soliloqueen]

Of course if you change the microphone placement, the frequency response will change... but if you reproduce the same condition it should be pretty close from one take to the other.
I've been working with voice actors for the past 15 years and we record dialog lines over multiple months. I can randomly pick any 2 takes and they will sound pretty close.

That's generally because experienced voice actors know how to handle mics. with inexperienced actors and vocalists who don't often do boothwork, it can be hard to match even portions from the same session. I'm not saying that the capsules aren't very different, but I don't really agree with your logic here. The auto EQ detects such large differences primarily because of singer and mic position. autoeq is integrated over the full time of the provided clip, so it's not going to be accurate when the position varies so much over a take, especially such a short one. I run into this all the time in postproduction and when it's dialogue it often requires the take to be separately equalized in 2-5 second increments in order to get the entire line to sit in the mix evenly, but we're getting off-topic. I'm not really saying any of this in relation to the capsule. I don't disagree with your point at all, but the logic you're using is not congruent with my own 15 years of experience as a postproduction engineer. Relying on integrated autoeq for such a varied read is not good practice.

Again, I'm not saying they're not different. The null at 6k vs the dip at 7k are due to the capsule's differences in pressure behavior. They're handling the mic's position differently, probably.

 

[soapfoot]

I record a fair bit of acoustic guitar, and have grown to expect fairly-dramatic timbre shifts even with slight differences in position.

If addressing the mic somewhat closely, it can be dramatic enough that I must make edit points at a chord change, otherwise the timbre shift makes the edit point audible.

 

[kingkorg]

Even if it's two different takes, the same microphone in a well-treated room will never give such a difference in frequency response.
Clearly, soliloqueen's capsule differs from the original Neuman. And different doesn't mean inferior!

Yes it absolutely will, you are using averaging function in Fabfilter, which will be thrown off by difference in transients of the specific performance. Your Fabfilter curve is not showing the difference in frequency response, if it were Soliloqueen's capsule frequency response would look much different to the one i posted in the first post. There is no way either Neumann or Soliloqueen's capsule have +7.5db at 6k.

 

[soliloqueen]

Yes it absolutely will, you are using averaging function in Fabfilter, which will be thrown off by difference in transients of the specific performance. Your Fabfilter curve is not showing the difference in frequency response, if it were Soliloqueen's capsule frequency response would look much different to the one i posted in the first post.

exactly, and the spurious random eq points in the middle are from her singing at slightly different pitches between the two files. it's trying to move the pitch of her singing around. fabfilter's autoeq is not terribly smart, curveeq's is much better, but it's moot because they're on and off axis at different points. it's best just to use your ears and dispense with stuff like this for separate takes, unless you can read a spectrogram

 

[kingkorg]

exactly, and the spurious random eq points in the middle are from her singing at slightly different pitches between the two files. it's trying to move the pitch of her singing around. fabfilter's autoeq is not terribly smart, curveeq's is much better, but it's moot because they're on and off axis at different points. it's best just to use your ears and dispense with stuff like this for separate takes, unless you can read a spectrogram

Sure. That's why i was hoping we could get pink noise test. While we should be grateful for all the audio examples we get, it is very easy to atribute diference in preformance to the capsules.

 

[Recording Engineer]

I knew Stephen Paul and have worked on many capsule that he had "destroyed". Please don't take anything that he said or wrote as fact.

Well I do, as much as I do anyone else I highly-regard (such as yourself). Simply saying otherwise (without showing otherwise) means nothing here.

Klaus Heyne once described visiting Stephen's workplace as unhygienic.

No surprised there. I remember Stephen’s “Uncontrol Room”. I’ve seen a number of “mad-scientist”workplaces. Don’t know how that’s relevant here.

Stephen may have been one of the greatest proponents of smoke screens and voodoo to try and protect his position as a mic guru.

I don’t know why people feel the need to throw such massive accusations out without evidence; especially when the person they’re talking about is no longer on this earth. My mind/eyes are open.

This response above is full of such nonsense.

Maybe so, but fact is, there is a difference between Neumann and Sennheiser-Neumann, right? I’ve yet to see ANYONE ELSE ever attempt to explain why.

He often describes things like frequency response charts but hardly ever includes them in the discussion or under what circumstance they were made.

100% agree... If only he wasn’t as sick as he was, when he was on this earth or more time on this earth... Maybe, maybe not. I’ve seen some of his modded-mics come with a frequency-response chart though. How many charts have I seen Klaus, or you for that matter, ever put out?

Neumann's capsules today are made by Sennheiser with machinery much more precise than anything Stephen Paul could possibly have used.

I wouldn’t necessarily be surprised. Makes sense to me.

After repairing Stephen's previous work I can attest that the work was done not to micron precision but with a really a heavy hand.

I believe it.

 

[soliloqueen]

Maybe so, but fact is, there is a difference between Neumann and Sennheiser-Neumann, right? I’ve yet to see ANYONE ELSE ever attempt to explain why.

Given how they tension the diaphragms, It might be something simple and procedural, like they made a change with their PVD setup (bought a new machine?) that required the rings they mount the diaphragms in to change and still used the old weights they put on top, resulting in a slightly different overall weight.

 

[Tubetec]

Just in relation to Horizoneers post about HM Customs 'finger banging' his capsules ,
I'd lodge a complaint right away ,
Provide photographic evidence and copies of all the relevent documentation , tell them their empolyees carelessness has destroyed the capsules and their now totally unusable and worthless .
They may be under no obligation to compensate you , thats not to say they wont investigate the matter though , you never know you might get a good outcome , either way who ever was responsible will have to answer to their superiour .
You could try threatening to take them to the small claims court , be interesting to see what transpires .

It might be a good idea to label the boxes the capsules are contained clearly saying 'DO NOT TOUCH THE GOLD FOIL '

 

[Tim Campbell]

How many charts have I seen Klaus, or you for that matter, ever put out?

I measure every capsule and if someone asked me to give them one I would but I would never devote a long paragraph about what was wrong with freq. response while refering to a chart that the reader never got an opportunity to see.

Given how they tension the diaphragms, It might be something simple and procedural, like they made a change with their PVD setup (bought a new machine?) that required the rings they mount the diaphragms in to change and still used the old weights they put on top, resulting in a slightly different overall weight.

With these type of capsules you could easily be off by 100hz and not be able to measure it.

 

[Tim Campbell]

Just in relation to Horizoneers post about HM Customs 'finger banging' his capsules ,
I'd lodge a complaint right away ,
Provide photographic evidence and copies of all the relevent documentation , tell them their empolyees carelessness has destroyed the capsules and their now totally unusable and worthless .
They may be under no obligation to compensate you , thats not to say they wont investigate the matter though , you never know you might get a good outcome , either way who ever was responsible will have to answer to their superiour .
You could try threatening to take them to the small claims court , be interesting to see what transpires .

It might be a good idea to label the boxes the capsules are contained clearly saying 'DO NOT TOUCH THE GOLD FOIL '

I had US customs completely destroy 4 capsule I had sent I believe because I packaged them in biodegradable foam which must have showed on their scanners as organic material. They literally opened everything, dumped it back into the box, metal mounts and capsules together, unprotected which destroyed every membrane and they were not responsible for any damage.

 

[soliloqueen]

I had US customs completely destroy 4 capsule I had sent I believe because I packaged them in biodegradable foam which must have showed on their scanners as organic material. They literally opened everything, dumped it back into the box, metal mounts and capsules together, unprotected which destroyed every membrane and they were not responsible for any damage.

Yikes.

 

[soliloqueen]

I measure every capsule and if someone asked me to give them one I would but I would never devote a long paragraph about what was wrong with freq. response while refering to a chart that the reader never got an opportunity to see.


With these type of capsules you could easily be off by 100hz and not be able to measure it.

That makes sense, the k67 as a design is not that sensitive in my experience, but I do wonder what the difference is. Admittedly I haven't heard or taken apart many newer capsules. I found what I could second hand in most of that was old stuff.

 

[Tubetec]

Its true customs and excise dont really have to abide by the usual rules and laws that apply to everybody else , I'd still kick up a stink about it though , might learn them a lesson .

 

[elskardio]

Relying on integrated autoeq for such a varied read is not good practice

I never said I'm relying on auto EQ and would never use eq match on a long audio clip.
The screen capture I posted was done with 4-5 seconds of audio where I found the 2 recordings the closest to each other. Even if the test has a lot of flaws, it still shows a good idea of the difference in the way the frequencies were captured between both recordings.

That's generally because experienced voice actors know how to handle mics. with inexperienced actors and vocalists who don't often do boothwork, it can be hard to match even portions from the same session.

People tend to record everything in close miking because of badly treated rooms. A subtle movement from the actor in close miking makes a big difference in the recording.
We often track in a large well treated studio (no booth) with the microphone at a good 2 feet from the actor. There's a mark on the floor where the actor needs to stand. We also use a shotgun mic at a farther distance to play the perspective in the mix.

The only time we EQ takes to really match them is when the voice actor is out of town and needs to record his line in a different studio. Then we manually match with EQ by ear.

 

[Tim Campbell]

I have NOS K67 and new K87 capsules here but unfortunately I don't have the time to measure them right now.
I will say that I have an old U87 and an old NOS U87 complete headbasket with capsule. Switching the head assembly on the same preamp they are very different in the low mids. These are 2 old capsules from the same era.

 

[soliloqueen]

I have NOS K67 and new K87 capsules here but unfortunately I don't have the time to measure them right now.
I will say that I have an old U87 and an old NOS U87 complete headbasket with capsule. Switching the head assembly on the same preamp they are very different in the low mids. These are 2 old capsules from the same era.

Same experience here. Interesting capsules. I'd like to get a bunch of working ones and measure more things like FR of the separate halves and capacitance between backplates and really aggregate some statistics rather than just three or so.

 

[SparkleBear]

I love these conversations... I will try to do more pink noise shooting when I get back home in a week or two. I tried to be as controlled as I could with the test but of course it was flawed to begin with as they were certainly different takes. I did have two u67 i could have placed on the same take but the other was in storage at the time. Ah well...

Im glad my comparison could contribute in some way... great conversations here. Thanks y'all.

I brought up my vintage m269 head basket for this project I am working on... but it didn't sound great on the singer. The modern capsule sounded better on that voice at that time... I totally had a pre-conceived bias that the vintage one would sound better. Who knows what it's been through over the years. I got it from ocean way when they were liquidating back in 2018...

I am very curious about what occurs in Klaus's capsule tuning service where he "restores the vintage voicing" of a modern k67 capsule. Is it just relaxing the diaphragm somehow? I am very curious to hear what this would do. Have any of yall experimented with such procedures?

 

[Tim Campbell]

I am very curious about what occurs in Klaus's capsule tuning service where he "restores the vintage voicing" of a modern k67 capsule. Is it just relaxing the diaphragm somehow? I am very curious to hear what this would do. Have any of yall experimented with such procedures?

I am curious also because relaxing the membrane as he describes would not result in the change to freq. response he attributes to it. A lower tuned membrane does not necessarily correspond to more lower mids or bass.