Soliloqueen's k87(k67) and k47 capsules

[Roman Beilharz]

Thanks, guys! So all this exactly makes me wonder, whether I should rather go for a vintage style K47 and back off the high frequency de-emphasis by reducing the cap in charge in my U67 style build with Chinese K67 capsule - or wait for the improved K87/67 capsule by Arienne and maybe roll-off even stronger:

I have an original Neumann 80s U87 and it sounds sharp and tinny to my ears. My U67 build sounds better in all respects with the Chinese capsule already...

So back to my question and more precisely:

How steep/amplified will the 10kHz-ish peak be in Ariennes K87 version?

I am sure there are more essential sonic differences to talk about besides FR and roll-off, which can be tweaked when comparing both specific designs (and I am not talking about generic differences that you can read about in the official papers, but rather subtleties that maybe just the head of development is aware of, her majesty the capsule-queen herself?!).

 

[Roman Beilharz]

Is there and have you listened to or used such a microphone that perfectly corresponds to the description, meets all the above conditions and makes you happy?
If so, what is it called?

My SONY C100 is pretty close, but could use some saturation magic that my transformer/tube based microphones provide.

Same goes for the Josephson C617Set SDC (!) in close miking. Sounds more LDC than most LDCs

 

[micolas]

My SONY C100 is pretty close, but could use some saturation magic that my transformer/tube based microphones provide.

The C-100 is a special microphone with 2 capsules of different sizes. I don't think you will get the same result with 87 or 47 type capsules.
The easiest is to run it through your favorite tube preamp.

 

[Roman Beilharz]

The C-100 is a special microphone with 2 capsules of different sizes. I don't think you will get the same result with 87 or 47 type capsules.
The easiest is to run it through your favorite tube preamp.

Well, the SDC on top only takes over above 20k, so I am not sure whether this is true entirely and this graph looks far from what my own C100 measurements look like top-end-wise.

And sure, C100 via SPL GainStation sounds great, but I am trying to learn how to proceed with my own builds anyway.

As this thread is about Arienne' capsules, we should not derail it any further, though.

 

[micolas]

I have an original Neumann 80s U87 and it sounds sharp and tinny to my ears. My U67 build sounds better in all respects with the Chinese capsule already...

So back to my question and more precisely:

How steep/amplified will the 10kHz-ish peak be in Ariennes K87 version?

Here you can see some older test samples of Arienne capsules.
Today's tolerance is even tighter.
The maximum boost of the K87 capsule does not exceed 5dB.

I repeat, whatever circuit or headbasket/body you use, I don't see how you would get the sound of the C-100, (not even the FR)
But you can get the U67 sound, with proper build quality.

 

[Roman Beilharz]

I was just responding to your question about naming examples of microphones trending towards what I'd like to hear.

If I want a C100 sound, I'll be using a C100 of course. I want a 67-like sound and I am close already. I'll most likely be ordering both capsules and find out for myself

But thanks for the FR measurements of Ariennes K87, given the to-be-released batch will look alike.

 

[micolas]

I want a 67-like sound and I am close already. I'll most likely be ordering both capsules and find out for myself

But thanks for the FR measurements of Ariennes K87, given the to-be-released batch will look alike.

The measurements belong to Soliloqueen, they are older, but they will be publicly available customized for each serialized capsule, customers will even be able to choose capsules according to FR.
Ari is a perfectionist. He tested hundreds of prototypes.
He managed to produce capsules of an impressive consistency. In the new batches he even managed to obtain tolerances of 0.3dB which is extraordinary.

 

[Drea]

What I think is the Flat47 is normaliter for close-up vocals/instruments spot mic work. hyped k47 airier could be beter for distance work like big overheads or orchestral use. “thaT’s my theory”

 

[Khron]

Ari is a perfectionist. He tested hundreds of prototypes.
He managed to produce capsules of an impressive consistency. In the new batches he even managed to obtain tolerances of 0.3dB which is extraordinary.

*She

 

[Khron]

hyped k47 airier could be beter for distance work like big overheads or orchestral use.

You probably won't be getting much "air" at 5kHz...

 

[micolas]

You probably won't be getting much "air" at 5kHz...

 

[Roman Beilharz]

Although OT, it has to be said: I don't know about Audiotestkitchen, their setups and overall expertise, but after using the C100 for years and years - ever since it was first sold - alongside to many other much more expensive microphones, their attributes do not a slightest bit match my own experiences. It never sounds "glassy" or "icy", is one of the quietest LDCs that I own ("Hiss, noise"), sounds exceptionally "organic" and neutral and not the slightest bit sharp, sibilant or hyped. And in general I think we should not cling to FR-graphs too much, they just tell you half of the story - at best.

Now let's focus on Soliloqueens development/improvement of the new K67. Please.

 

[micolas]

@Roman Beilharz
The sibilance appears in the mid-high range.
FR confirms this.
(The smartphone GUI exaggerates the representation on the vertical axis (dB). FR is properly scaled on desktop graphics)
*
Maybe a name like CHRIS LORD-ALGE tells you something.
https://www.audiotestkitchen.com/blog-list/chris-lord-alge-make-your-own-choice

 

[Roman Beilharz]

Ah, I see. I just looked up my own measurements and scaled properly they match quite well, indeed - my apologies.

About the given tags about the C100 sound, I humbly agree to disagree with "the lord". I repeat: Time domain and phase coherence seem to matter a lot more at the end of the day than FR graphs. Otherwise all those wonderful Rode LDCs would sound excellent - but they don't

 

[rogs]

..... Otherwise all those wonderful Rode LDCs would sound excellent - but they don't

One of the Rode LDC models doesn't seem to sound too bad ! .....

 

[micolas]

One of the Rode LDC models doesn't seem to sound too bad ! .....

I have many Rode microphones, of all types, I think over 10. They are a great price. Modified can become excellent on the right sources.This is where we DIYers come in!

 

[Roman Beilharz]

One of the Rode LDC models doesn't seem to sound too bad ! .....

Well ... if you think the NT1 sounds good (forget about side by side is no true 1:1 on-axis comparison by design), then there is no need to invest in any of this .

Modified is a different story altogether.

 

[rogs]

Well ... if you think the NT1 sounds good (forget about side by side is no true 1:1 on-axis comparison by design), then there is no need to invest in any of this .

Modified is a different story altogether.

You are of course entitled to your own opinion and - this being the internet - folk will have to decide for themselves whether they think it's a valid one?

Personally I'm of the view that Rode only decided to post that comparison after they had heard the results themselves... and were, perhaps, pleasantly surprised ?

Sadly, some aspects of the microphone world fall into world of being Veblen Goods and that brings with it all sorts of attendant 'snake oil'....

At the end of the day, people can only rely on their own ears to make assessments for what suits them.

I personally think that the Rode LDCs can sound OK, and represent good value for money .... I certainly don't believe the U47 in that comparison is worth the extra £9000+ that Thomann are asking for it !

But that, of course, is only my own opinion....

 

[kingkorg]

It will sound great, but say in an MS configuration your image might end up slightly leaning towards one side (you can easily compensate for this in post) and your stereo image/pickup pattern will not be as geometrically perfect as with the higher grade capsules (you can't easily/quickly compensate for this in post).

These people here strive towards an excellency that stock products might never achieve, so everything under the sun is highly relative

Figure of 8 is way more than sum of two cardioids with opposite phase. There are all kinds of anomalies that can appear, covered to a certain extent in my thread:
(Edit, see my next post for a great example)

https://groupdiy.com/threads/why-you-should-never-use-multi-pattern-mics.81157/

This should point to what i'm talking about:



@elskardio
I don't think anything crazy will happen with these cardioid @soliloqueen offers, i just think she's very pedantic and goes for highest possible standards.

which is a concept that exists nowhere in the real world anyway (ears are the most twisted "microphones" you could possibly use).

Not sure what you mean by this, you do realize you are hearing with your brain, not ears? Brain compensates for this. Hadn't we had linear equipment this thread and capsules discussed here wouldn't exist.

Time domain and phase coherence seem to matter a lot more at the end of the day than FR graphs. Otherwise all those wonderful Rode LDCs would sound excellent - but they don't

Time domain errors and phase cohrence issues show in frequency response. Røde capsules have no special issues of their own regarding phase or time domain, they are as flaud as k67. Maybe you want to share measurements of these errors? How do you measure and correct for c100's ultrasonic range? How do phase, and time domain issues behave at c100's crossover region? C100's smaller capsule is of different construction than large one, how does the polar pattern look time domain wise at crossover from the two capsules? Sure that crossover frequency is 20K?


You don't think this area shows serious time domain/phase issues?

 

[kingkorg]

Coincidentally Sony c100 shows exactly an anomaly i was thinking about when saying one should avoid LDC for multipattern, and what can happen even though both sides are matched. Also answer some of the questions i posed in previous post.



Look at that 90° spike just above 10K. The mic doesn't have any side rejection at this point. It's omni in this range. Now imagine what 90° leakage, bleed, reflections sound like. WTF happens to 10k + at 180°? Shouldn't it be just like 0° response? Well it would if the upper capsule didn't fight and cancel out the sound.

On the other hand the mic in Omni is not omni at all above 10k, let alone ultrasonic. It's not even hi-fi. Conveniently, it's performance above 10k is omitted in polar pattern graph.

It's not about measurements, it's about how you interpret them. An ECG graph is of no value to oblivious person.