Standardized Card Edge for All Future 500 & 51x Projects?

[jsteiger]

...Or leaving that extra .018" space, just for wiggle room I guess?

Yes. I'd rather have it a hair small than a hair to big...in this particular situation. 

...or to account for the right angle curve of the bracket

Typically far enough away (standoffs) that the bend doesn't interfere with the PCB.

...Any advice on where to place the L-bracket mounting holes?  Should we standardize on this too, since we're on the cusp on a new diy audio frontier here. Or just have everyone drill as they may. I envision one day we may have L-brackets and enclosures pre-drilled to 51x specifications.   

Well, if you use them towards the front, stay far enough away from the bend. Volker and I talked about standardizing the rear since for the 51x proto boards he used my normal layout. I think we finally decided to let everyone do what's best for their particular board layout. Sometimes you need that flexibility. That's why we chose no holes for the 51x proto L-brackets.

FWIW, I run 2-12V relays from the +16V rail on the VP312DI, via a little zener shunt regulator. The HiZ Plug-In can also run from the +16V rail. Everything seems to run just fine this way. I chose this route so that the card can be permanently modified to run in a 500VPR rack. The relays would run just fine on 16V but I wanted to drop it down in case someone was running hot at 18 or 20V.

Best, Jeff

 

[kato]

Yes. I'd rather have it a hair small than a hair to big...in this particular situation. 

Good thinking. Do you also trim a bit off the 4.5" height?

 

[jsteiger]

Good thinking. Do you also trim a bit off the 4.5" height?

No, I didn't. I am right on 4.5". You could probably even get away with 4.6"...I think Peter Purpose is pretty close to that. I remember checking a 1084 EQN board but I forget where it was exactly. The opening on my console is 4.65" between the metal...but I stick with 4.5" since it is better to be safe.

 

[mnats]

what if someone uses a lunchbox, cuts off the additional fingers but wants to upgrade to a 51x frame in the future.

While building my LAZ EQN I wanted to use it in both a 500 rack and with a 51X jig for testing. I found that it is possible to trim around 2mm off the tab on Peter's board which allows it to seat completely into the Lunchbox while still allowing contact in the 18 position EDAC. Some pics here: http://mnats.net/pp-eqn_notes.html#51X_500

Not sure how Kosher this is or how reliable it would be as a dual-rack solution but for testing purposes it seems fine.

 

[fluxivity]

anyone do it up in eagle yet?
thx
p

 

[bruce0]

anyone do it up in eagle yet?
thx
p

i have one that I use in Eagle, for self etch.  I have attached the library that contains it (18 pin edge). That one does work, although I have never made it at a board house so I don't know about plating etc.

There is a lot of other stuff in this library, some of it I have made some is the work of others, some I have used, some I have not.

It won't let me upload eagle file, I mailed it to [email protected]
Attached.

 

[plimousse]

Hi,
Does anyone have any template for the PCB CAD (OrCAD for me)

Thanks
Best,
Pascal

 

[bruce0]

Wouldn't it be nice to have the PCB and L-Bracket mounting hole locations specified as well?

Can we agree on (MINIMALLY) the back two mounting holes?

Can we use [silent:arts]/ClassicAPI little prototype card and the hole positioning as the standard?

(I measured and it appears that ClassicAPI/and [silent:arts] use the same measurements. An Igor project was close.).

(We have to drill L-Bracket carriers differently for every prototype). 
JLM has their own spacing (much to my dismay recently)

Sometimes there is a need to have a different spacing for a particular purpose, but wouldn't it make it easier to prototype if we could have "GroupDIY 51X Module Mounting Specifications (Default)".  If you wanted to do a non-standard you could just avoid the existing mounting holes.

Maybe someone would offer the L-Brackets drilled (or I can make a template for drilling them).
Maybe someone would offer a full metal jacket or half metal jacket like the NV73 from Don Audio has (very nice metal work).

So the proposal:

I propose we adopt a standard for the back 2 mounting holes for 51X Modules that matches the silent:arts classic spacing (apart) and distance from the front panel.

All that would be needed is the measurements.  I can measure but I would probably get it wrong with the calipers.

 

[[silent:arts]]

I would be in (and suggested this before)

 

[bruce0]

I saw your suggestion on this thread http://groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=33849.msg463804#msg463804

And another thread where Jeff suggests that he would gladly post hole locations

From what I see there are different "levels" of spec we can do.  Sometimes it is best to do the minimum.

Minimum: - Spec dimensions for two holes
- Rear holes 2.12" from module centerline (4.14" apart)
- Rear holes (x " from back of front panel) - I don't have this dimension do you?
- PCB hole diameters
- Metalwork hole diameter Countersunk hole

Those four dimensions would set a "standard"

Trying to spec front holes seems harder.

The commonly used front hole placement is problematic.  It creates trace routing problems near the already crowded front panel (a better location is further back). It is also really hard to mount near the corners (some of those L brackes have large radius bends!) And in many cases modules support the front of the card on the switches (is this bad practice?).  If we want to spec 4 holes, perhaps we can use Vince@Speck's front hole position or just spec the back two holes.

More complete spec:
- Front holes (use Vince@Speck's front hole placement from this post http://groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=39175.msg483737#msg483737. I would need to ask him what it is.
- Use the same vertical spacing 4.14"


If that spec existed I could make a PDF drilling template for the L-Brackets ( I can't tell you how many brackets I have where a hole or two is out of place).

Maybe an online machine shop file (gemini86 did an AWESOME standoff free carrier bracket but his vertical spacing is very different).

Let me know what you think should be specified.
And if you are willing please post the measurements (vertical, distance from back of front panel, and hole diameters)

I included jsteiger's bracket spec (but the bend radius on those brackets is pretty large in some cases)

 

[Mzaar]

Since people were looking for something like that ...here are my gerber files for a 51X 116mm*148.5mm template/board 

Its a zip but it seems I can't upload it with .zip extension so rename it .zip instead of .txt

Update : new version 51X TEMPLATE BOARD 116x148.5 with a span of 75.5mm for 75.7mm 18 pins slot, and a span of 63.55mm for 63.8mm 15 pins slot. Notch is 1.8mm instead of previous 1.6mm one.  18 pads on top layer & 18 pads on bottom layer so you can use the NC pins if you want as suggested by bruce0 .

 

[Mzaar]

Here the eagle library file :

 

[bruce0]

Mzaar:

Great job, thanks so much for doing this!

Maybe this will help DIYers with good ideas get through the details faster and get Module PCB's made and available to other DIY folk.


I double checked measurements on your part against Chunger's english dimensions and it seems good to me,  Differences seem like good engineering decisions.  The differences I saw were (1) Main 15 pin tab section is a little narrower than the Chunger spec but only by 3 hundredths of an inch on each end and that wouldn't allow misaligned contacts and seems wise for engineered slack and (2) It seems you allow an L-Bracket up to .09" thick behind a front panel, which again seems a wise engineering choice.

Have you built a module with this part? 
If so, any fit problems?

Awesome for you to do this, thanks so much!

I do have some suggestions, if you feel like another step.  And if you want I am happy to help with that next step.

1) Mount holes.  It would be great to put the mount holes on the part if that is possible, or maybe that requires a board I don't know.  I would suggest spacing to match [silent:arts]/ClassicAPI hole spacing for the back two holes.  (Front holes might use Vince@Speck's front hole positions or just be left up to the builder).  Holes with Pads would be better.  Volker has offered the dimensions he used for the holes in the past I could research this for you (only if you are interested).

2) Radial Engineering has defined purposes for 3 commonly unused pins that you have omitted.  Pins 7, 9, and 11.  I will write this up in a different thread and link it from here as soon as I can.  It might be worth putting pads on for those pins to make modules that take advantage of the Radial capability. See description at: GroupDIY 51x and Radial OmniPort and Mixbus

3) It might be nice to build a list of PCB houses ( I would be happy to put it in the 51X META)  that have made a board with this part.  The goal being to lessen the concern about possible board specification problems when building prototypes and promote more 51X module PCB's getting built.


Again thanks for this.

bb

 

[Mzaar]

bruce,
I updated my posts with a V2 including unused pins so people can take advantage of them (I like the idea to insert an eq in a pre by using the unused pins since api500 panels are small and an eq+pre doesnt always fit on one standard panel).

I reduced a little the loose on V2 by lightly expanding the 18 pin tab section (from 75mm to 75,5mm). It should fit tighter in the 36 Pin Card Edge Connector (75.8mm)  but I'll have to check IRL if the connector tolerances allow that kind of span.If not back to 75mm no prob.... I also put a larger notch to avoid futur issues with the tab alignement.

Regarding Mount holes, I can add them with pads on another version so we can have some kind of standard and if someone need something else he could pick the no holes board and add his own stuff. I'll be glad if you can provide some dimensions for the holes (Volker/classicapi dimensions seems legit to me to be the standard).

 

[[silent:arts]]

Due to request, here are the two L-Bracket fabrication files for the Jensamp-51X and OV560/PMV70X L-Brackets.
(note on the Jensamp: the 4 x M3 counter sunk holes are M3 threated inserts in reality).

The mounting holes on the back are the same like for the GDIY51CEA_rev01 Prototype PCBs.

 

[slimvince]

Please check your pm regarding neve style knobs

bruce,
I updated my posts with a V2 including unused pins so people can take advantage of them (I like the idea to insert an eq in a pre by using the unused pins since api500 panels are small and an eq+pre doesnt always fit on one standard panel).

I reduced a little the loose on V2 by lightly expanding the 18 pin tab section (from 75mm to 75,5mm). It should fit tighter in the 36 Pin Card Edge Connector (75.8mm)  but I'll have to check IRL if the connector tolerances allow that kind of span.If not back to 75mm no prob.... I also put a larger notch to avoid futur issues with the tab alignement.

Regarding Mount holes, I can add them with pads on another version so we can have some kind of standard and if someone need something else he could pick the no holes board and add his own stuff. I'll be glad if you can provide some dimensions for the holes (Volker/classicapi dimensions seems legit to me to be the standard).

 

[bruce0]

Due to request, here are the two L-Bracket fabrication files for the Jensamp-51X and OV560/PMV70X L-Brackets.
(note on the Jensamp: the 4 x M3 counter sunk holes are M3 threated inserts in reality).

The mounting holes on the back are the same like for the GDIY51CEA_rev01 Prototype PCBs.

Based upon your drawings I propose the following Rear Carrier Hole standard for 51X

The carrier can be any dimension or shape to support the product but when applicable rear holes should be spaced as follows to allow re-use of parts. The rear holes of a carrier should be 137.1mm (5.398") from the rear face of the front panel and this location is also specified as 13.7mm (0.54") from the back edge of the gold fingers. 105.2 mm (4.142”) apart vertically centered vertically.  The holes are M3 or 4/40 countersunk.



So I guess the question is:  Who established the 51X standard, is there a standards board?  Whom do I apply to or should we create a standards board.  (I hate committee's). Volker? Jeff? Cemal?

I will supply a drill template and we can update the EAGLE card library to adopt that spacing if we get aproval <grin>.

I did the math on the diagram and got the following dimensions:

Jensamp
(Conversion to nearest .001” in parens)

Carrier Dimensions
142.2mm deep (5.598”) (from back of front panel)
114.3mm tall (4.5”)
36.2mm Total Width (1.426”)

Hole Spacing

Front Holes 6.3 mm behind front panel
Back Holes 137.1mm behind front panel

Holes are 105.2 mm apart (4.142”)
The bottom hole 4.6mm from the bottom edge (0.181”)
The top hole 4.5mm from the top edge (0.171)

Holes are M3 counter sunk (4/40 countersunk)

OV560
More complicated but relative hole positions for rear holes is the same.
Rear holes are 137.1mm behind face plate
Front holes are in a different position

Holes are 105.2mm apart vertically.

 

[bruce0]

Regarding Mount holes, I can add them with pads on another version so we can have some kind of standard and if someone need something else he could pick the no holes board and add his own stuff. I'll be glad if you can provide some dimensions for the holes (Volker/classicapi dimensions seems legit to me to be the standard).

Please attach the lbr file if you can, you just posted a jpg. 


I think you only want to place 2 REAR holes.  I posted measurements from the front panel in the previous post. 

If you place front holes they can interfere with various things (pot mounting, short cards with attachments, etc.).

 

[[silent:arts]]

Hi Bruce,

wouldn't it be better to standardize from the card edge connector side, not from the front?
like you can see from the OV560 / PMV70X, the front can vary.
Like the thickness of the L-Bracket material, if it is L-shaped at all.

there is no standard board. however, the prototype card edge PCBs I did would fit the back mounting holes exactly.
my guess is Jeffs do the same, but you have to check this.

 

[bruce0]

I think maybe the measurement needs to be from the backplane on the PCB AND the back face of the front panel on the carrier in order to produce the correct insertion depth into the connector when the module is screwed down. So really we need to standardize both dimensions to locate the hole.

This will allow cross compatibility between person manufacturing metal carriers jackets and brackets and person manufacturing PCb's

I am guessing I can subtract the proposed dimension from Chungers card depth but I was going to check that by measuring your little prototyping adapter before proposing the dimension (and I figured Mzaars card profile might pick up holes and do it).

This is really a third location (the three are; back face of faceplate, back end of proper depth gold fingers, and centerline of mount hole). And of course we need the hole spacing and diameter


Am I bring thick about this? Is there an easier way?