Studio Cue System Project

[Whoops]

Digital is not an option with this cue system. Especially when it comes to singers.

Singers, Professional Singers, Amazing Singers, just Love Digital Cue Systems, Aviom comes top on the list.
This is not an opinion, I have 16 years of recording professionally using cue systems that have A/d and D/A conversion that proves it.
Never had 1 singer complain about the Aviom, and even today not any singer ever complained to me about the Behringer Aviom clone.

But I've had many Singers and many musicians complain how bad was the cue monitoring back in the old analog days.

Aviom is used in most of the biggest studio productions in the World for many years, with great success.

 

[Potato Cakes]

The signal is being split before converters and is sub mixed or sent directly analog to this system. So at no time is the AD/DA or the DAW affecting anything going to cue mixes. It is a completely separate system after the mic preamp. I agree that stage wedges have several milliseconds of time due to the distance between the singer and speaker. The issue is when in ear monitors or headphones are being used. This is when you get the mismatch of time between chest resonance and the audio going to IEMs with digital consoles. I have even built analog only vocal path solutions for some of the most recognizable artist names to solve issues related to this disconnect they were having while on stage. The best way I can describe the experience is that when talking into a mic with in ear monitors, the sound of my voice sounds like it is behind my ears, causing a mild sensation of being short of breath. This is why if you are ever an audio guest in monitor world and are given a cue pack to listen along, the mix you hear is usually swimming in reverb and even has high boost around the 2.5kHz range. To a third party, this sounds terrible and one can only think why does a singer want to listen to this? To the singer, these are all things to help separate the audio from the chest resonance. Then they do all kinds of other tricks like taking one ear out or also needing wedges which causes more problems, making them more frustrated. Bands also seem to play better together in a live tracking situation when doing analog monitoring without the 1-2.5ms of latency.

I also agree about how bad monitoring was in studios in the "old analog days." You had many facilities with gear that was never installed nor serviced properly and only layers of bandages were used to get from session to session, including world renown facilities. You also had engineers that did not know how to setup a cue mix, not to mention all of the hums, buzzes, and strange noises that came with poor cabling and layout. The Aviom and similar systems had many benefits of allowing musician to help or hurt their own monitoring and this was seen as a welcomed improvement, but the headphone amps are mediocre and have a high noise floor. The studio space I've been building out over the last year had a Hear Technologies system which is well respected, but the owner of the building got rid of it because the headphone amp would distort as it couldn't properly drive normal headphones in a live band tracking situation.

All of that is why I am building this particular system. An analog only path for monitoring and amps with enormous amounts of headroom so headphones will be driven distortion free (or as close to that as possible). This approach seems silly to most but my reasoning is based on years of testing and touring experience. If this explanation needs to be further debated then it could be done so in either Studio A or the Brewery. For this particular thread I am only interested in discussing possible solutions or if the remaining issue can be solved with the current design approach. I know I'm very close. Hopefully sinking the headphone return signal to the audio ground will reduce the signal bleed.

I am going to have to order parts to build a new board. It seems that I have finally run out of some of the small parts that of which I thought I still had an abundance.

Thanks!

Paul

 

[Potato Cakes]

People seem to forget that even stage monitors can be several feet away from a performer (or even further for sidefills) so the delay from distance to the monitors can be at least a few milliseconds. DAW latency can be awful, but monitor systems have never been an issue for me in studio or live situations.

In L.A. most newer studios use Avioms, while many older installs still use the Furman systems, and the top studios still use the Manley or Mytek cue systems. I've used Berhinger systems that seem to work well, and I've had mixed results with Hearback systems.

A few studios still use the old Mackie 16-channel mixers (or similar) for cues. Every musician knows how to push faders around until they get a mix they can tolerate. There are some analog 8-channel mixers with decent headphone outs for around 100 bucks, but then you need multicore snakes and power for each station.

The multiple mixer setup is what they used (and I think still do) at Ocean Way Nashville. This types of system is where the inspiration came from and was going to take this exact approach but like you said it requires an intricate multicore snake system. Plus the quality of the headphones amps is still the other part of the issue. The Manley or Mytek route is much better, but it still requires lots of additional cabling. And they are quiet expensive for a 5 mixer system.

Thanks!

Paul

 

[kags]

The signal is being split before converters and is sub mixed or sent directly analog to this system. So at no time is the AD/DA or the DAW affecting anything going to cue mixes. It is a completely separate system after the mic preamp. I agree that stage wedges have several milliseconds of time due to the distance between the singer and speaker. The issue is when in ear monitors or headphones are being used. This is when you get the mismatch of time between chest resonance and the audio going to IEMs with digital consoles. I have even built analog only vocal path solutions for some of the most recognizable artist names to solve issues related to this disconnect they were having while on stage. The best way I can describe the experience is that when talking into a mic with in ear monitors, the sound of my voice sounds like it is behind my ears, causing a mild sensation of being short of breath. This is why if you are ever an audio guest in monitor world and are given a cue pack to listen along, the mix you hear is usually swimming in reverb and even has high boost around the 2.5kHz range. To a third party, this sounds terrible and one can only think why does a singer want to listen to this? To the singer, these are all things to help separate the audio from the chest resonance. Then they do all kinds of other tricks like taking one ear out or also needing wedges which causes more problems, making them more frustrated. Bands also seem to play better together in a live tracking situation when doing analog monitoring without the 1-2.5ms of latency.

I also agree about how bad monitoring was in studios in the "old analog days." You had many facilities with gear that was never installed nor serviced properly and only layers of bandages were used to get from session to session, including world renown facilities. You also had engineers that did not know how to setup a cue mix, not to mention all of the hums, buzzes, and strange noises that came with poor cabling and layout. The Aviom and similar systems had many benefits of allowing musician to help or hurt their own monitoring and this was seen as a welcomed improvement, but the headphone amps are mediocre and have a high noise floor. The studio space I've been building out over the last year had a Hear Technologies system which is well respected, but the owner of the building got rid of it because the headphone amp would distort as it couldn't properly drive normal headphones in a live band tracking situation.

All of that is why I am building this particular system. An analog only path for monitoring and amps with enormous amounts of headroom so headphones will be driven distortion free (or as close to that as possible). This approach seems silly to most but my reasoning is based on years of testing and touring experience. If this explanation needs to be further debated then it could be done so in either Studio A or the Brewery. For this particular thread I am only interested in discussing possible solutions or if the remaining issue can be solved with the current design approach. I know I'm very close. Hopefully sinking the headphone return signal to the audio ground will reduce the signal bleed.

I am going to have to order parts to build a new board. It seems that I have finally run out of some of the small parts that of which I thought I still had an abundance.

Thanks!

Paul

Hey Paul— all valid points. Do you find that adjusting polarity helps accommodate singers? I know when I’m setting up a vocal mic I always flip the polarity back and forth to find the best sound in the singer’s headphones. The recording and monitoring path may or may not affect polarity, but if I find a good starting point, singers usually start off feeling good. Plus we use HDX interfaces so latency through the DAW to the cues is not an issue.

I’ve though about installing a polarity switch that the singer can control for their cues, but I’ve never implemented it.

 

[kags]

The multiple mixer setup is what they used (and I think still do) at Ocean Way Nashville. This types of system is where the inspiration came from and was going to take this exact approach but like you said it requires an intricate multicore snake system. Plus the quality of the headphones amps is still the other part of the issue. The Manley or Mytek route is much better, but it still requires lots of additional cabling. And they are quiet expensive for a 5 mixer system.

Thanks!

Paul

Yes - very expensive. I remember the 90s where studios could charge 1500/day rental fees for Sony 3348 and even $150/day for NS10s. Not to mention 30 bucks to make a CD ref to take out to the car! That makes a $2k per mixer cue system seem affordable.

Maybe an audio over Ethernet distribution chain into mackie mixers with an upgraded JLM headamp?

 

[Potato Cakes]

Polarity reversal creates a strange, unpleasant sensation in headphone monitoring for me so I don't mess with it for singers. And I agree that when singers first put on headphones and they feel they are in a solid starting position then they are in good mood the whole session. Having a dedicated reverb already in their headphone mix seems to generally help a great amount in this regard.

Thanks!

Paul

 

[Potato Cakes]

Yes - very expensive. I remember the 90s where studios could charge 1500/day rental fees for Sony 3348 and even $150/day for NS10s. Not to mention 30 bucks to make a CD ref to take out to the car! That makes a $2k per mixer cue system seem affordable.

Maybe an audio over Ethernet distribution chain into mackie mixers with an upgraded JLM headamp?

No a bad idea, but then we are back to having a cabling mess, which gets compounded when pedal boards, amps, and piles of 1/4" cables are part of the equation once the band sets up.

The cue mixer boxes that I have are lightweight and easily clamp to a mic stand. They also don't need power which adds to the ease of setup.

Thanks!

Paul

 

[Brian Roth]

Paul, this reminded me of an article written by one of my OLDE <g> friends, Rick Chinn....decades ago:

http://uneeda-audio.com/phones.htm
I dunno how to change that link here from "1" but it should work.

Bri

 

[drtechno]

But I've had many Singers and many musicians complain how bad was the cue monitoring back in the old analog days.

It depended on the studio. But the worst I saw was the headphone split 12 times with volume controls on a rail box and the headphone amp in the equipment room on the other side of the control room, so there was about a hundred feet of headphone wire before it was split into twelve headphones with volume controls. The only ones I saw sucessful with long headphone cords was using a return channel on a snake into the room powered individually by thier own headphone amp in the control room. But a lot would have the headphone amp in the vocal booth, which they patch an aux send to it.
So there is good ways and bad ways to do analog headphones, just like digital. Most have adapted the local mixer that turns the signal around to be mixed for a headphone matrix. I've been looking at this one as an upgrade because of the 512x64 mix matrix with 720x720 channels it has besides it being a 256x256 interface from Dante, two Madi formats plus ADAT: Digital Audio Denmark DADCORE256 Half Rack Multi-Channel Aud

 

[Brian Roth]

https://probroadcastsupply.com/digi...256-ch-thunderbolt-3-256-ch-dante-io-dadpenta
Interesting....then what happens from that into various headphone "stations" in the studio? I probably didn't dig deep enough.....

Bri

 

[kags]

It depended on the studio. But the worst I saw was the headphone split 12 times with volume controls on a rail box and the headphone amp in the equipment room on the other side of the control room, so there was about a hundred feet of headphone wire before it was split into twelve headphones with volume controls. The only ones I saw sucessful with long headphone cords was using a return channel on a snake into the room powered individually by thier own headphone amp in the control room. But a lot would have the headphone amp in the vocal booth, which they patch an aux send to it.
So there is good ways and bad ways to do analog headphones, just like digital. Most have adapted the local mixer that turns the signal around to be mixed for a headphone matrix. I've been looking at this one as an upgrade because of the 512x64 mix matrix with 720x720 channels it has besides it being a 256x256 interface from Dante, two Madi formats plus ADAT: Digital Audio Denmark DADCORE256 Half Rack Multi-Channel Aud

You could go the way Sony does on the scoring stage with a full-on monitor mix console in the live room that takes stems or busses from the recording console. Like a concert monitor system…. Prob overkill unless you’re hosting Hans Zimmer.

 

[kags]

It depended on the studio. But the worst I saw was the headphone split 12 times with volume controls on a rail box and the headphone amp in the equipment room on the other side of the control room, so there was about a hundred feet of headphone wire before it was split into twelve headphones with volume controls. The only ones I saw sucessful with long headphone cords was using a return channel on a snake into the room powered individually by thier own headphone amp in the control room. But a lot would have the headphone amp in the vocal booth, which they patch an aux send to it.
So there is good ways and bad ways to do analog headphones, just like digital. Most have adapted the local mixer that turns the signal around to be mixed for a headphone matrix. I've been looking at this one as an upgrade because of the 512x64 mix matrix with 720x720 channels it has besides it being a 256x256 interface from Dante, two Madi formats plus ADAT: Digital Audio Denmark DADCORE256 Half Rack Multi-Channel Aud

If you wanna go Dante, you could just get these and feed from auxes in your DAW over the network. I did this for a game VO studio and it’s slick

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/RedNetAM2--focusrite-rednet-am2

 

[Brian Roth]

DAMN!!!!! $700 for a "cue station". I'm obviously missing something here....

Bri

 

[kags]

DAMN!!!!! $700 for a "cue station". I'm obviously missing something here....

Bri

What’s missing is that corporate $$. You and me both!!

 

[Brian Roth]

Siiiiigh.....and so many hit records were recorded in famous studios with one or two power amps feeding passive cue boxes <g>.

I know the Aviom system is "today's" defacto standard, but I would guess the GUI is complex to the new user/musician in the studio.....even Olde Salts with many sessions under their belts.

Hell, I recall when the Hearback system was new many years ago. I had to go out into the tracking room to "defuck" the settings on the user pods. Add board/masking tape on the pod...

"Main mix is THIS pot. Your MoreMe is THIS pot. Joe across the room is THIS pot". etc etc
Even for guys who had been doing studio gigs for many years.


Bri

 

[Brian Roth]

I remember doing sessions here when Aaron had his Neve Capricorn desk. We adapted his Old School wiring to the headphone boxes. Four power amps feeding four stereo pairs into wall box sockets (1 stereo feed per wall outlet). We color-coded those outlets and corresponded that into stereo feeds from the Capricorn cue sends we set up in the configuration. The mix for each cue send was done in the control room based from the main stereo mix with any number of MoreMe possibilities (up to total of four.....cuz we only had 4 stereo pairs powering into the tracking room.

Drummer asks for more bass in the cans? Turn up bass guit into the RED send. etc etc

Bri

 

[Brian Roth]

FWIW..this was State of the Art 20-ish years ago:

https://furmanpower.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/hrm-16_manual.pdf
It was part of this studio:

http://brianroth.com/projects/curtis/curtis2.html
Bri

 

[drtechno]

If you wanna go Dante, you could just get these and feed from auxes in your DAW over the network. I did this for a game VO studio and it’s slick

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/RedNetAM2--focusrite-rednet-am2

I have three Focusrite RedNet X2P for vocal booth/od purposes. They are great once you rip out the phantom power and make the mic preamps DC coupled.
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/de...x2-ethernet-audio-digital-io-with-mic-preamps

 

[drtechno]

FWIW..this was State of the Art 20-ish years ago:

https://furmanpower.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/hrm-16_manual.pdf
Bri

I remember those a while back.
One time I had to make a set of attenuators for a guy because his SSL desk liked to overload the inputs on them.

 

[drtechno]

DAMN!!!!! $700 for a "cue station". I'm obviously missing something here....

Bri

For those, I was thinking about listening room, break rooms and chillout area for those. Instead of the in the wall outlet stuff.