TAC Matchless Pan Circuits

[Chrome Heart]

Does anyone know at what point the pan circuit in the monitor section of the console will intersect with the pan circuit of the main mix?  It looks like the only place would be in the 4000 master module unless, its somewhere in the integrated patchbay. Im have a strange audio cancellation problem in the monitor circuit when the pans in both the main and monitor are dialed hard left or right.

 

[radardoug]

Why are you opening another thread on this? You already have a thread running on this problem. Also you have not explained the problem well. Are you saying you send the same signal to a channel and to the monitor section, and then when you pan them both the same way they cancel? If this is so, then the monitor section and the channel are out of phase somewhere.

 

[ruffrecords]

Why are you opening another thread on this? You already have a thread running on this problem. Also you have not explained the problem well. Are you saying you send the same signal to a channel and to the monitor section, and then when you pan them both the same way they cancel? If this is so, then the monitor section and the channel are out of phase somewhere.

Or his monitors are.

Cheers

Ian

 

[Chrome Heart]

Yes, I did start another thread because I thought perhaps I wasnt clear on the other. I tried to delete the other thread but the site would not allow it.
radardoug asked about the pan pot on the master section. There is no pan pot. Which led me to believe radardoug does not know this console. And no, nothing is out of phase either in the patch bay or in the speakers. But, since I have been asked to elaborate, I will...
The monitor and the master pans are independent from one another on each channel, and are summed in the master section at the source selector. If, the MAIN output pan is in center position then the audio will pass in both sides of the monitor. If the MAIN is panned hard left and the monitor is panned hard left it cancels the audio ONLY in the monitor section, not the MAIN . The problem of audio cancelling on the left is only on the ODD channels. The same condition exists on the right on the EVEN channels. Again, this only happens on the MONITOR buss, not the MAIN.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Yes, I did start another thread because I thought perhaps I wasnt clear on the other. I tried to delete the other thread but the site would not allow it.

I delete posts all the time for people...  just report it yourself and ask for it to be deleted.

I'd much rather delete it because you asked, than have other people asking because they are irritated.

JR

radardoug asked about the pan pot on the master section. There is no pan pot. Which led me to believe radardoug does not know this console. And no, nothing is out of phase either in the patch bay or in the speakers. But, since I have been asked to elaborate, I will...
The monitor and the master pans are independent from one another on each channel, and are summed in the master section at the source selector. If, the MAIN output pan is in center position then the audio will pass in both sides of the monitor. If the MAIN is panned hard left and the monitor is panned hard left it cancels the audio ONLY in the monitor section, not the MAIN . The problem of audio cancelling on the left is only on the ODD channels. The same condition exists on the right on the EVEN channels. Again, this only happens on the MONITOR buss, not the MAIN.

 

[Chrome Heart]

Yes, I did start another thread because I thought perhaps I wasnt clear on the other. I tried to delete the other thread but the site would not allow it.

I delete posts all the time for people...  just report it yourself and ask for it to be deleted.

I'd much rather delete it because you asked, than have other people asking because they are irritated.

Now that I know. Done

JR

radardoug asked about the pan pot on the master section. There is no pan pot. Which led me to believe radardoug does not know this console. And no, nothing is out of phase either in the patch bay or in the speakers. But, since I have been asked to elaborate, I will...
The monitor and the master pans are independent from one another on each channel, and are summed in the master section at the source selector. If, the MAIN output pan is in center position then the audio will pass in both sides of the monitor. If the MAIN is panned hard left and the monitor is panned hard left it cancels the audio ONLY in the monitor section, not the MAIN . The problem of audio cancelling on the left is only on the ODD channels. The same condition exists on the right on the EVEN channels. Again, this only happens on the MONITOR buss, not the MAIN.

 

[Chrome Heart]

Back to the original topic...

essentially, no monitor send on the left on odd channels and no monitor send on the right with even channels.

 

[radardoug]

So are we talking about a monitor pan and a main pan on one channel strip?
Are they both being fed with the same signal? How are you monitoring this?  Are you monitoring the monitor section and the main section simultaneously?
By main do you mean the stereo output bus?

 

[Chrome Heart]

So are we talking about a monitor pan and a main pan on one channel strip?

Yes. All channel strips have both a monitor pan and main buss pan.

Are they both being fed with the same signal? How are you monitoring this?  Are you monitoring the monitor section and the main section simultaneously?

Yes. Both being fed the same signal. It is possible to engage the Monitor and Main buss at the same time on this console but I am only monitoring one at a time. The condition exits only on the Monitor section as stated in the previous post.

By main do you mean the stereo output bus?
Yes.

 

[radardoug]

You cannot listen to the stereo out and the monitor section unless you press both those buttons down at the same time, which you are not supposed to do. And there must be a phase inversion between the monitor section and the stereo bus.

 

[Chrome Heart]

No. That is not the issue . Although, I very much appreciate your input. Such as it is.

 

[radardoug]

Oh, OK, so I haven't fixed the problem for you, for free, that you can not describe accurately. I might as well bugger off then.
If you dont want help, dont post!

 

[Chrome Heart]

Like I said radardoug, I appreciate your response. Fact is, I was reaching out to someone who may have a deeper understanding of this particular console. Its very possible that this is how the monitor section is supposed to function, the manual is not very clear. There are no  wiring  problems in this setup as I have spent an exhaustive amount of time tracing connections and double checking schematics. So, if there is anyone who has practical use of this console on this message board I would appreciate the input.

 

[radardoug]

The thing is, I've had a read of the manual, and I cant understand how you are getting what you are getting. Normally you can monitor EITHER the stereo bus OR the monitor bus, but not both at once. You can use the monitor path for extra inputs to the stereo bus by pushing the MON button on each channel. Is this what you are doing? If you are then feeding the same signal to the line input and the monitor input, and they cancel, then you have a phase reversal on one of the paths. Have you tried phase reversing one of the paths?

 

[Chrome Heart]

Im not monitoring both at once.

 

[radardoug]

Are you using the MON switch on the channel?

 

[Chrome Heart]

No.

 

[mjrippe]

It has been a lot of years, but I engineered many albums on a Matchless back in the day and never had an issue like you describe.  I have to agree with Doug on this one - something, somewhere is out of phase.

 

[Chrome Heart]

I appreciate the input. I dont think its a phase issue because if I buss assign a channel to, for example, 9, I get nothing in the left side. If however, I buss to both 9 and 10 I get a stereo monitor mix. So, if this was a phase cancel issue it shouldnt make any difference if I buss to 9, or 9 and 10. Or, perhaps Im missing something.

 

[radardoug]

Its so hard to work with you on this because you give so little info. Lets start from the start.
Assign a signal to a channel. Press the ST button to route it to the stereo mix.  Use the fader panpot and sweep both ways. Does the signal pan across the stereo bus?
Now unpress the ST button and route to 9 and 10. Do you have group metering? If so do the pan again. Does the signal pan between 9 and 10?
Now listen to the monitor bus, and turn up monitors 9 and 10. Pan 9 left and 10 right with the monitor pans.
Using the fader panpot on the channel with an audio signal on it, pan left and right. Does the monitor mix follow the pan?
If you use this logical approach to signal flow you should be able to troubleshoot. If you find a fault, change channels and repeat until you can identify the fault.