team politics talking points.

[hodad]

all history is"revisionist history"

I was thinking about this after my last post. History is very much a reflection of the time and place it's written. And I think it's fair to say there are competing visions of American history at the moment--the more exclusionary White-focused version being pushed by the Republicans, and a more inclusive and perhaps less forgiving version from the left. The right-wing effort seems like a somewhat desperate effort to hang on to a certain vision of American and its past, while the left-wing version tends to focus on the sins that have been glossed over probably since the beginning of the nation.

Now earlier I talked about my own heritage, and my struggles to reconcile my various feelings about all of it. Were my ancestors monsters? How should I think of them? And what of the justifications, glorifications, and apologia for the Confederacy that still surround me in my life as a White Southerner?

And I don't think the answer is to hide from the history--from slavery to the Civil War to the horrors committed by Southerners during Reconstruction, poll taxes, lynchings, the Tulsa Massacre, segregation, etc. It's much better to face it and deal with it than to pretend it didn't happen or that it wasn't really that bad.

But I think it's also worth acknowledging that there wasn't necessarily anything congenitally evil about the people who did these bad things. Taken as a group, White Southerners were pretty much like anybody else--but they were born White Southerners in a time of slavery. In many ways most were likely decent or even good people--loving spouses and parents, caring children and grandchildren, hard workers and loyal friends. But that in no way excuses their participation in the institution of slavery or their fighting to prolong it, and it does not justify the glorification of the soldiers and generals, does not justify the lies and excuses in the history books.

And the racism that followed--still follows, all this time later--in the wake of that war is inexcusable. It won't instantaneously vanish (unless we do), and the only way I know to deal with it is to actually reckon with it. Look at the words and deeds that led us here, celebrate the good and try to fix what needs fixing. It sounds simple--because I'm writing a forum post & not a book--but it isn't.

I think part of the revisionist history push on the right is from people who really don't want to deal with this stuff--don't want to admit their country's flaws, don't want to look at the horrors committed, don't want to consider that their own actions and words, or the policies they support, might in fact be hurtful to others. Confederate statues may not seem like a big deal at all if you're white, but if you're Black you might see those statues as an ever-present glorification of the enslavement of African-Americans--and when those statues are on government property, it's bound to make you wonder if said government really has your best interests at heart.

**This post is already way too long, so I'm stopping now.

 

[JohnRoberts]

I was thinking about this after my last post. History is very much a reflection of the time and place it's written. And I think it's fair to say there are competing visions of American history at the moment--the more exclusionary White-focused version being pushed by the Republicans, and a more inclusive and perhaps less forgiving version from the left. The right-wing effort seems like a somewhat desperate effort to hang on to a certain vision of American and its past, while the left-wing version tends to focus on the sins that have been glossed over probably since the beginning of the nation.

The mind reading never stops and the concept of "white" history vs a "black" history is unnecessarily divisive, there should only be one history. If I was mind reading too I might suggest that "black" history like project 1619 (which claims the Revolutionary war was fought to preserve slavery) is intentionally divisive to foster racial disharmony. Coincidentally around the time of our founding there were white indentured servants (arguably similar to slavery but with contractual limits).

Now earlier I talked about my own heritage, and my struggles to reconcile my various feelings about all of it. Were my ancestors monsters? How should I think of them? And what of the justifications, glorifications, and apologia for the Confederacy that still surround me in my life as a White Southerner?

It is not healthy to feel guilty about the behavior of distant ancestors, likewise it is not fair to blame others for their ancestor's behavior whom they have zero responsibility for. I have watched over the last couple decades as we eroded a lot of embedded racial prejudices by simply exposing races to each other by desegregating schools. Now we see some schools self-segregating along racial lines, and reframing race relations as oppressors vs. victims. Again this appears like a crude manipulation to make children distrust and dislike each other, reversing much of the progress we had made. Children have to be taught to hate and this seems like a destructive program.

And I don't think the answer is to hide from the history--from slavery to the Civil War to the horrors committed by Southerners during Reconstruction, poll taxes, lynchings, the Tulsa Massacre, segregation, etc. It's much better to face it and deal with it than to pretend it didn't happen or that it wasn't really that bad.

This history is not exactly hidden, and the list is longer than your short list. Sadly these disgusting historical events get dredged up for bad intent. For example the "Tuskegee syphilis study" where some four hundred negro males with syphilis were left untreated and studied, 100 died. This was ugly experiment was performed by CDC and US Public health dept. The Tuskegee debacle has been dredged back up and trotted out to make minorities distrust government health advice.

But I think it's also worth acknowledging that there wasn't necessarily anything congenitally evil about the people who did these bad things. Taken as a group, White Southerners were pretty much like anybody else--but they were born White Southerners in a time of slavery. In many ways most were likely decent or even good people--loving spouses and parents, caring children and grandchildren, hard workers and loyal friends. But that in no way excuses their participation in the institution of slavery or their fighting to prolong it, and it does not justify the glorification of the soldiers and generals, does not justify the lies and excuses in the history books.

It is a little unfair to judge behavior well over century ago by today's cultural norms.... look at how much modern culture has changed in just several years.

And the racism that followed--still follows, all this time later--in the wake of that war is inexcusable. It won't instantaneously vanish (unless we do), and the only way I know to deal with it is to actually reckon with it. Look at the words and deeds that led us here, celebrate the good and try to fix what needs fixing. It sounds simple--because I'm writing a forum post & not a book--but it isn't.

One way to reduce racism is to stop viewing everything in life through a black/or white lens.

I think part of the revisionist history push on the right is from people who really don't want to deal with this stuff--don't want to admit their country's flaws, don't want to look at the horrors committed, don't want to consider that their own actions and words, or the policies they support, might in fact be hurtful to others.

Or perhaps we don't want schools to teach our children to hate each other, and punish children for behavior of distant ancestors. In the past children were taught to hate by bad parents, now they are taught to hate by bad teachers.

Confederate statues may not seem like a big deal at all if you're white, but if you're Black you might see those statues as an ever-present glorification of the enslavement of African-Americans--and when those statues are on government property, it's bound to make you wonder if said government really has your best interests at heart.

The history of many such statues were erected by bad losers after the civil war trying to make a political statement. I doubt many people even recognize who these statues represent, let alone get triggered by them. Kind of like the #metoo movement over reaction, the ongoing campaign to discredit too many targets. Several of our founders owned slaves as was the culture at the time. They are still great men who did great things. The town I live in (Hickory, MS) was named after Andrew Jackson "Old Hickory" who passed through on his way to fight the battle of New Orleans during the war of 1812. No statues to tear down but a plaque on the old interstate highway a couple hundred yards from my house. I would prefer to see plaques on questionable statues explaining their bad provenance. Destroying cultural icons is something the Taliban does. Let's make these statues teachable reminders, like the Medgar Evans exchange/overpass I drive past every week.

**This post is already way too long, so I'm stopping now.

I have paid attention to race relations for several decades and fear we are now moving backwards unwinding a lot of progress made over the decades. Some of this is to garner political power, some is outside bad actors trying to destabilize our nation that is a threat to authoritarians around the world.

I believe my signature line and don't like the racially divisive direction we are heading.

JR

[edit- congrats for effectively changing the subject from Durham charges /edit]

 

[hodad]

Several of our founders owned slaves as was the culture at the time. They are still great men who did great things.

Yeah. History is complicated. Oh, wait...you said it wasn't.

I believe my signature line and don't like the racially divisive direction we are heading.

If you really believed it, or had any understanding of it, you'd not be on the side you're on now. Don't forget, John, the neo-Nazis and White Supremacists are on your side. Maybe you ought to think long and hard about your side's role in this racial divisiveness you're seeing.

I doubt many people even recognize who these statues represent, let alone get triggered by them.

And how do you know? Quit ASSUMING you can READ MINDS.

Sadly these disgusting historical events get dredged up for bad intent.

Is this your BS excuse for not teaching them to the White snowflake babies? "We must ignore history because someone might use it for bad intent." Weak.

It is a little unfair to judge behavior well over century ago by today's cultural norms.... look at how much modern culture has changed in just several years.

This does not mean it should be ignored or glossed over, as your side is so determined to do. And as I have noted, these attitudes have echoed down through history, in a list that is longer than I apparently am capable of enumerating, and continues to have impacts to this very day. That is why we have to teach that history. That history is still with us, still reverberating in the words and deeds of people across this nation. And if you are incapable of seeing that, then I suggest you get out more.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Ok you have officially lost your argument by comparing me to neo-nazis (Godwin's law) and white supremicists.

You are treading on thin ice regarding civil discourse (rule #4).

I am done wrestling in the mud with you. I value my time.

JR

 

[shabtek]

there cannot be one history as John wants without including a plurality of perspectives.
we have been taught a narrow perspective (in US public education).that is in the nature of limited capacity of singular editorial account.

even within that limited account I read between the lines;this textbook is a limited perspective; doesn't dwell on certain unfortunate things that happened but goes into great detail about other things suggesting consensus in what present-day understanding should be.

those are the texts that have been taught as American History--many never read into them that deeply, rather accepting the list of facts unquestioningly: why question something that may lead to inconsistency with your upbringing, culture, world-view?

 

[Gold]

I would prefer to see plaques on questionable statues explaining their bad provenance.

That’s what happened to most of them. They have been moved to museums and put in context.

 

[shabtek]

how can mistakes be learned from when willfully oblivious?

how can mistakes be learned from if they are erased?

 

[hodad]

Ok you have officially lost your argument by comparing me to neo-nazis (Godwin's law) and white supremicists.

You're on the same side. Facts. The Neo-Nazi clowns who demonstrated at Charlottesville are definitely not Democrats. The anti-semitic lunatics who promote Replacement Theory are on your side of the aisle. The Republican Trump White House contained folks who were if not overt White Supremacists then at the very least sympathetic. Look at the people who showed up for 1/6 and see how many anti-semitic & white supremacist groups were front and center.

You, I'm afraid, are the loser here, as you fail to recognize the company you are keeping. I have never accused you of being a white supremacist or neo-nazi, but I do believe that as they gain power in the GOP it will be much harder for anyone who continues to be a faithful party member to avoid supporting politicians and policies that are racist.

 

[Matador]

Look at the people who showed up for 1/6 and see how many anti-semitic & white supremacist groups were front and center.

Half of them are now on the Supreme Court.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Half of them are now on the Supreme Court.

Speaking about scotus and race, how about President Biden limiting his nomination for a replacement jurist to only black women? Something like 5% of total pool of federal judges.

I don't care if they are green as long as they believe in the constitution.

This race/sex prescription seems a little ironic as one of the cases they may have to rule upon is the Harvard- UNC affirmative action cases.

WASHINGTON – The Supreme Court announced Monday it will decide whether the use of race in the admissions process at Harvard University and the University of North Carolina violates civil rights law and the Constitution, reviving a controversial legal debate over affirmative action that has been years in the making.

JR

PS: There has been a scary increase in violence against Asian women in NYC. On complicating factor that the news seems oblivious to is how many homeless shelters have been opened in china town. Only one is for families so the rest are full of homeless single adults. We need to improve the mental health resources available to this population.

 

[Matador]

Speaking about scotus and race, how about President Biden limiting his nomination for a replacement jurist to only black women? Something like 5% of total pool of federal judges.

Sounds long overdue to me.

Trump limited his picks to only Federalist Society members, which are roughly 5% of the practicing attorney pool in the US.

 

[MicDaddy]

nothing says "for your health" like freezing bank accounts because protesters are now (checks notes) terrorists?

..good luck censoring Bitcoin transactions despots of Canada

 

[grid_stopper]

nothing says "for your health" like freezing bank accounts because protesters are now (checks notes) terrorists?

..good luck censoring Bitcoin transactions despots of Canada

I really wish americans would go back to not caring about canadian politics. the amount of half informed takes ive had to read over the past couple weeks is borderline unbearable. no ones personal accounts are being frozen, croudfunding platforms are being made to conform with these laws, which given how much foreign money is being dumped into canada wrt to these protests, its not a bad idea for the government to keep an eye on it. I really, and truly am concerned about canada/my government invoking the emergencies act(I also dont think it will stand up to scrutiny in court- as they have never been tested), but good lord man-tend to your own.

 

[Gold]

The mind reading never stops and the concept of "white" history vs a "black" history is unnecessarily divisive, there should only be one history. If I was mind reading too I might suggest that "black" history like project 1619 (which claims the Revolutionary war was fought to preserve slavery) is intentionally divisive to foster racial disharmony. Coincidentally around the time of our founding there were white indentured servants

The 1619 Project is one version of American history that includes more than Lincoln freed the slaves. It’s not African American history.

 

[JohnRoberts]

History should be a citation of facts/events, not professing about everybody's intent (AKA mind reading).

JR

 

[Gold]

History should be a citation of facts/events, not professing about everybody's intent (AKA mind reading).

JR

Right. Which facts and events you include make a big difference. Like the Tulsa massacre. That is fact and an event that was suppressed in American history until recently.

 

[john12ax7]

Sometimes people have ulterior motives, but even well intentioned people don't always remember things 100% accurately. Look at things like eyewitness testimony. To determine facts in history you therefore by necessity need accounts from the multiple parties and perspectives of those involved.

 

[Brian Roth]

Right. Which facts and events you include make a big difference. Like the Tulsa massacre. That is fact and an event that was suppressed in American history until recently.

My Mom (now age 92) grew up in Okla and attended OKC public schools and OSU. I (age 67) grew up in Okla and had the same school background.

Neither of us were ever taught about the Tulsa massacre. I don't know about Mom, but Okla history was a mandatory class when I was in high screwel circa 1970. It wasn't until MUCH later in our lives that we heard anything about it.

Literally whitewashing of our history.

Bri

 

[john12ax7]

It's rather sad the outright suppression of some parts of history.

 

[JohnRoberts]

kind of like the news today....

JR