The absurdity of US college textbooks

[JohnRoberts]

Its even worse when you consider the amount that the author gets, similar to the music industry. I think that the main reason academic authors write books has more to do with academic reputation rather than earnings.

while this is just a single teacher anecdote, an engineer I worked with at Peavey was a college professor before joining the circus (working for Peavey). He related to me how the revenue from authoring a textbook was significant in the context of the weak professor pay... The professors aren't the ones getting rich from the college scam (it's the administrators).

JR

 

[shabtek]

The 10k is a pittance. Those are federal loans that are only available to the lowest income segment ime.

The institutions should bear some responsibility. But supply/demand.

 

[user 37518]

Another successful thread derail, I knew I shouldn't have mentioned tuition costs....

 

[user 37518]

while this is just a single teacher anecdote, an engineer I worked with at Peavey was a college professor before joining the circus (working for Peavey). He related to me how the revenue from authoring a textbook was significant in the context of the weak professor pay... The professors aren't the ones getting rich from the college scam (it's the administrators).

JR

Was that before or after piracy being ubiquitous in the Internet? As of today, AFAIK, book sales are pretty much similar to album sales when it comes to author revenue

 

[Tubetec]

I have a friend whos a writer for an army history publication ,
Sometime back he was asked to contribute a piece for a school text book on the causes of terrorism , inevitably he had to choose his words very carefully to get his point of view across without upsetting people and killing the golden goose . The job was worth good money alright but of course a bit like juggling hot potatoes politically.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Was that before or after piracy being ubiquitous in the Internet? As of today, AFAIK, book sales are pretty much similar to album sales when it comes to author revenue

probably 1980s

JR

 

[dchang0]

If you think it's bad now, it's about to get worse very soon.
There is talk amongst college textbook publishers on using electronic means to force students to always buy brand new "textbooks" or get a cut of all used sales or both.

For instance, some of you may have already seen where a printed paper textbook comes with a unique software code in it for which you must use the code to access online materials.

The code/login is not supposed to be transferable but students are doing it.

The publishers want to make it so that the code is not at all transferable or totally trackable each time it is transferred. They plan on using the blockchain (NFTs) to enforce single unique ownership of each code.

https://gizmodo.com/ntfs-textbooks-college-pearson-1849392349
My response to this is to simply not go to college (I was going back for a business degree, but I stopped midway when they cranked tuitions way up back in the early 2000s). I am also advising the young ones in my family to go to college/university outside the USA or to go to trade school if they want to stay in the USA. No point in racking up $100K to $200K in debt for a degree that can't pay that back in under 40 years.

 

[user 37518]

If you think it's bad now, it's about to get worse very soon.
There is talk amongst college textbook publishers on using electronic means to force students to always buy brand new "textbooks" or get a cut of all used sales or both.

For instance, some of you may have already seen where a printed paper textbook comes with a unique software code in it for which you must use the code to access online materials.

The code/login is not supposed to be transferable but students are doing it.

The publishers want to make it so that the code is not at all transferable or totally trackable each time it is transferred. They plan on using the blockchain (NFTs) to enforce single unique ownership of each code.

https://gizmodo.com/ntfs-textbooks-college-pearson-1849392349
My response to this is to simply not go to college (I was going back for a business degree, but I stopped midway when they cranked tuitions way up back in the early 2000s). I am also advising the young ones in my family to go to college/university outside the USA or to go to trade school if they want to stay in the USA. No point in racking up $100K to $200K in debt for a degree that can't pay that back in under 40 years.

I partially agree with you, if you are going to college because you are just interested on getting a job afterwards, I would say that college is not strictly necessary or you should attend community college. If, on the other hand, your primary reason to attend college is to learn or work on something which requires years in college (like a surgeon), then college is a must.

If you are going to college to spend 200k in a liberal arts degree, then yes, don't go to college.

 

[shabtek]

the racket that is higher education (and textbooks) relates to todays token 'forgiveness'

maybe the institutions will be held more accountable

ime most of the text of a given book was not covered
ideally any textbook at the course level and subject could be examined if study was directed by a well versed instructor

there is likely enough public domain material to cover most undergrad requirements...

 

[user 37518]

the racket that is higher education (and textbooks) relates to todays token 'forgiveness'

maybe the institutions will be held more accountable

ime most of the text of a given book was not covered
ideally any textbook at the course level and subject could be examined if study was directed by a well versed instructor

there is likely enough public domain material to cover most undergrad requirements...

Well, now that the cat is out of the bag, we might as well go along with it, so I'll ask: exactly what happened that made affordable college tuitions from the 1960s suddenly become soul-selling-tuitions in the 1990s and onwards? I might be mistaken, but I remember reading? listening? that the US government used to subsidize colleges, but over time that subsidy was dramatically lowered and the difference is now absorbed by the students. I don't know if this is true, or what is going on.... I guess I am too lazy to Google it because I am sure there is a lot of info out there explaining the whole thing.

Second question, is an Ivy League degree really required? as I said earlier, I was a visiting scholar at OSU in Columbus, OH, and I believe it is an amazing college, it is not Ivy league, but it has one of the best research labs in the electromagnetics/RF area.

Evidently, an Ivy league degree should be able to get you more "elite" jobs, but at what cost? I remember, years ago when Obama was still president, I was reading the news about how Obama just finished paying his student loans, and I thought: if it took the POTUS so long to pay his student loans, it must be hell for the average Joe....

 

[shabtek]

Ivy league will get you more elite peers.
the few places I've noticed continual expansion and investment over the years
hospitals, colleges and churches. all profitable rackets it appears

 

[AnalogPackrat]

Here's my 1987 Sedra and Smith 2nd ed. which I bought new for the course also in 1987. There's no price tag on it, but I'm sure it was well over $50.



I got my BS and MS at a small state university that was founded as a land grant A&M school in the late 19th century. It became a full University some decades later. It was, and still is, the best engineering school in the state. Tuition my freshman year in engineering was $780 per semester. I lived on campus in the cheapest (shabbiest) dorm for about $500 per semester. I had a five day meal plan (three buffet style meals per day in two campus cafeterias) for another $500 per semester. Books were $200-350 per semester depending on what I could find used. Add in some weekend expenses and I was still under $5k per year. I worked part time and summers in high school to help pay for it and also had summer jobs through my MS.

Grad school was cheaper because I applied for and was accepted for a lab TA position every semester except my first. Tuition was reduced rate for TAs, so my main expenses were food, board, and books.

The same BS degree course at the same school with similar room and board is now well over $30k per year. The cheap dorms were demolished and replaced with relatively luxurious housing (and fewer rooms). As a result most undergrads now live off-campus. The school allowed the undergrad population to expand from about 12k in the mid 80s to around 20k currently. Administrative growth has far outpaced core academic growth in personnel and expenses. On-campus facilities are more like club med than an academically focused campus.

I was fortunate that my parents had saved for my education (and my younger brothers) on their modest salaries. I did my best to help as well. Even if I had taken out a 20k loan for my BS I could have paid it off in 2-4 years with ease. Starting salaries now are 3-4x higher than in the late 80s when I graduated, but the degree cost ratio is significantly more than that.

As for Ivy League or other elite schools...I worked in Silicon Valley for most of my career. Many hiring managers view degrees from Berkeley, Stanford, MIT, and the like as critical to success. Of course many of them graduated from those schools, so there's an elitist bias at work as well.

I have been involved in interviewing and hiring for perhaps 100 engineering positions over that time. I worked at a dozen different companies. I worked with a lot of different people from all races, creeds, and backgrounds. Some of the best engineers I know came from smaller and "less prestigious" schools and modest means. Some of the worst came from the big name schools. Overall it was a wash. What's important is the individual, their drive, their attitude, their curiosity, and their ability to work on a team, not what name is at the top of their degree.

 

[Gold]

If you want to work in a white shoe law firm or jump right into venture capitalism it helps to have an ivy league education. On the other hand calculus 101 isn’t much different at a community college or an ivy. Most state schools are still affordable. NYC has the CUNY system which had excellent colleges and universities that are affordable.

 

[user 37518]

Here's my 1987 Sedra and Smith 2nd ed. which I bought new for the course also in 1987. There's no price tag on it, but I'm sure it was well over $50.

View attachment 97573

I got my BS and MS at a small state university that was founded as a land grant A&M school in the late 19th century. It became a full University some decades later. It was, and still is, the best engineering school in the state. Tuition my freshman year in engineering was $780 per semester. I lived on campus in the cheapest (shabbiest) dorm for about $500 per semester. I had a five day meal plan (three buffet style meals per day in two campus cafeterias) for another $500 per semester. Books were $200-350 per semester depending on what I could find used. Add in some weekend expenses and I was still under $5k per year. I worked part time and summers in high school to help pay for it and also had summer jobs through my MS.

Grad school was cheaper because I applied for and was accepted for a lab TA position every semester except my first. Tuition was reduced rate for TAs, so my main expenses were food, board, and books.

The same BS degree course at the same school with similar room and board is now well over $30k per year. The cheap dorms were demolished and replaced with relatively luxurious housing (and fewer rooms). As a result most undergrads now live off-campus. The school allowed the undergrad population to expand from about 12k in the mid 80s to around 20k currently. Administrative growth has far outpaced core academic growth in personnel and expenses. On-campus facilities are more like club med than an academically focused campus.

I was fortunate that my parents had saved for my education (and my younger brothers) on their modest salaries. I did my best to help as well. Even if I had taken out a 20k loan for my BS I could have paid it off in 2-4 years with ease. Starting salaries now are 3-4x higher than in the late 80s when I graduated, but the degree cost ratio is significantly more than that.

As for Ivy League or other elite schools...I worked in Silicon Valley for most of my career. Many hiring managers view degrees from Berkeley, Stanford, MIT, and the like as critical to success. Of course many of them graduated from those schools, so there's an elitist bias at work as well.

I have been involved in interviewing and hiring for perhaps 100 engineering positions over that time. I worked at a dozen different companies. I worked with a lot of different people from all races, creeds, and backgrounds. Some of the best engineers I know came from smaller and "less prestigious" schools and modest means. Some of the worst came from the big name schools. Overall it was a wash. What's important is the individual, their drive, their attitude, their curiosity, and their ability to work on a team, not what name is at the top of their degree.

I am impressed by that SS copy, mine is the 4th edition from 1998. IMO the 4th is the best, if I am not mistaken, afterwards they started removing stuff like the chapter on the JFET since they considered it "obsolete", you could still have access to it online thou, again, greed.... they saved a few cents by not including those pages.

 

[AnalogPackrat]

I'm surprised the text is on its 8th edition and is still in print. I wish I had kept my first circuit analysis text from sophomore year, but I vaguely recall selling it, possibly to help pay for S&S.

Here are two datapoints with original price tags. On left from 1989 grad school, on right 1987 or 88 undergrad.

 

[AnalogPackrat]

Even after I started work I bought textbooks at the original Computer Literacy Bookstore in San Jose (or maybe Santa Clara) on N. First St. Here's one I got around 1998 while working at KLA-Tencor. Price was outrageous then ($192 in case you can't read the tag). Rear cover shown.

 

[user 37518]

Even after I started work I bought textbooks at the original Computer Literacy Bookstore in San Jose (or maybe Santa Clara) on N. First St. Here's one I got around 1998 while working at KLA-Tencor. Price was outrageous then ($192 in case you can't read the tag). Rear cover shown.

View attachment 97580

Yes, after the 1990s book prices went through the roof, my point exactly. Plus, that book you showed is a very specialized book (for the time), but 80% of what undergrad textbooks teach these days, is the same old things being taught since the 70s or 80s, the BJT, the MOSFET, the diode, calculus, etc....

 

[crazydoc]

Of course, the dirt cheap tuition and fees at CA public colleges and universities at that time (80's and before) certainly greatly offset the cost of books for those of us in California.

 

[Tubetec]

I was never much interested in modern tech or solid state stuff although I did plenty of repairs to transistor gear over the years.
By the time I got interested in tube gear many were convinced it would dissappear or was outdated .
All the colleges were interested in was shoehorning people into industry , electronics production here in Ireland
already had its cards marked , insurance costs and health/safety were the final nails in the coffin .
We didnt have the internet back then so I'd spend time in the library going through the cards listing electronics books , often the books I wanted werent to be found . On a few ocassions I ordered books on loan from the British lending library through my local city library , it was a great service and I made sure to return my books in good time and in the condition I got them in .
Then I started putting up adds looking for old electronics books and magazines , it was a good time as many of the tube guys were getting old at that stage and they couldnt find any schools or colleges interested in taking their collections . Right place right time for me , I found RDH4 , tube data books , Wireless world as well as collections of other amateur radio and electronic magazines and loads of transformers and components . Eventually I took a city and guilds course in electronics . While I was allowed to bring in some of the tube amps I made to show the other students ,I wasnt allowed to go near high voltages on the premisis due to insurance concerns . I had the possibillity to study more and possibly get into regional techincal college and maybe even university after that ,but I let that ship sail because tube stuff didnt figure in the curriculum at all . A smart move might have been to get into industrial electronics ,instrumentation and sensors ,but even back then the pharmaceutical sector was a filthy dirty business and I'd heard enough anecdotal evidence from friends whos dads would come home from the chemical plants smelling like rotten eggs . Subsequently I dug down a little deeper asking people of my own generation about the factories ,many ended up with serious health problems from being exposed to dangerous chemical residues , noxious gases etc . Health is wealth after all and if your health is poor due to working conditions no amount of cash can buy it back .

 

[AnalogPackrat]

Of course, the dirt cheap tuition and fees at CA public colleges and universities at that time (80's and before) certainly greatly offset the cost of books for those of us in California.

For the record I attended university far, far from CA. Prior to the late 80s to early 90s academics was emphasized and on-campus amenities were basic, even Spartan. We weren't coddled. A degree was still earned, not given. We mostly made our own entertainment.

As a graduate from a small school I did fine as did most of the classmates I've kept in touch with. I retired at 55 as an individual contributor (not management) in engineering. I made mistakes and paid for them (in dollars, blood, sweat, tears). I tried to learn from them and then moved on. It can be done without an Ivy League elite gold-plated degree.