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I don't see how my post can be interpreted in many ways. I'm happy this thread is developing and interesting ideas were posted so I was expressing my gratitude to all the contributors.
It seems my English is not very good if I can't express clearly what I want. And sincerly I didn't understand xvlk's post at all.

chrissugar
 
Chris, your English is fine, it just that "great thread" in the context of other people complaining about the lack of finished schematics could be misconstrued as sarcasm.

I, too, like this thread, and I don't think we have to have the preamp to end all preamps after a couple of weeks' discussion. There's no need to rush. This is DIY. Nobody gets paid for their contributions, and we all got other stuff to do. Such as survive.

I really don't understand xvlk's post either.
 
If you think the design I threw up there is supposed to be the preamp to end all preamps...forget it. If I ever make such an attempt I think I would opt for my tubes.
 
I'm not looking for the ultimate preamp, if there can be such a thing at all. I would like a low noise preamp built from fixed gain blocks. Should either sound very transparent and neutral or larger than life and colored. What's wrong with the existing preamps, inexpensive ones in particular, is that they can't decide between those two approaches. Doulbe half-assed is not the same as one nice butt :green:
 
I think Chris' English is outstanding as well. I was just having a little fun with the possibility of sarcasm.

The value of discussion on what may constitute to a good mic preamp is perhaps more valuable than a ready-made schematics.

I have been looking for a practical approach and it is pretty much what PRR has mentioned several times. Make the input as clean as you can, that includes all types of distortion including your favorite one, and add color later.

Look at the idea behind the Liquid Channel product. It has a very clean front circuit and a hefty DSP to simulate just about any preamp and comressor you can find.

Since serious DSP is beyond the realm of reasonable DIY why not make
a very clean solid state front end circuit that provides the majority of gain (~40dB). Then start a contest to design any number of second/output stages that add color through FET, Tube, transformer, etc., or whatever you can find in your basement. Or make a clean output stage as well.

tamas
 
Chris,

Your English is great (far better than my Romanian) and your point very clear and well taken. I too enjoy the 'give and take' of smart people exchanging ideas and thinking out loud. I enjoy lurking and grabbing at snippets that stimulate my own thoughts often on unrelated projects. I especially have enjoyed the input on this thread of PRR, BCarso and Tamas.

And I find criticism of that process to be arrogant at best. Just my 2 cents.
 
[quote author="analag"]Show us a design, xvlk.[/quote]
Why I may be person to show design ???? Design
of input of the mic amp is tradeoff. Tradeoff between
noise and/or distortion.
Input stage must be concepted for low noise,
you want to have low noise for low input impedance,
you must use adequate devices at adequate bias,
there are catalogue data for determine that optimality,
you can use input transformers or paraleling components for
noise matching as you want, but remember: if you use paralel components
instead of transformers, you must adequately enlarge bias (and collector) currents.

If you use feedback, you must use that feedback network, which itself
not degrade noise figure to nonusability (like your R1/R2)

If you have 200 ohm noise resistance of mic, theese two resistors
degrade noise figure of your amp by:
10*log10(2000/200) = 10 dB. , this decreases only feedback resistors,
even though next circuits are noiseless.

My design of mic amp ?
I still think, that optimal mic amp on a silicon must have at least
current output. It must be transconductancy - amp.
No compromises, no other solvings.
Look to old Harris catalogue. If one integrated circuit
have in voltage mode 90 dB of dynamic range, in current mode
have 140 dB.
Designs based on voltage amplification belongs to the triode
era and trough invention of pentode or transistor they can not be justified.

xvlk
 
[quote author="Carl_Huff"]
I too enjoy the 'give and take' of smart people exchanging ideas and thinking out loud. I enjoy lurking and grabbing at snippets that stimulate my own thoughts often on unrelated projects. I especially have enjoyed the input on this thread of PRR, BCarso and Tamas.
[/quote]

Thank you Carl, it is exactly how I feel. It is the exchange of ideas, defining the criterias, discussing the pros and cons of different topologies and other things that make the thread great even if there is no final schematic.

chrissugar
 
xvlk, your theory sounds good and it makes me desirous of seeing how you implement it.
 
[quote author="analag"]xvlk, your theory sounds good and it makes me desirous of seeing how you implement it.[/quote]
Yes, I am on the research phase now,
but I have some directions:
ribbon mic, 1:20-30 permalloy transformer, 1. stage only one FET without principial components around (or components in the signal path, but more sophisticated stabilizing circuits, DC servos)
and next current input A/D convertor.
Perhaps I can not use monolithics, because 10 mA of peak output signal from the fet; but studiing other possibilities;

And mainly I am studiing DSP algorithms. (not working on -:~, still studiing) Mainly as my job at www.tesla.cz It is research work, There is still much to do and classical transmitters are rudiments (and my love).
There were great peoples, Terman, Doherty and the others, over all century and still much to do... .
I am still not able to sit and draw schematics. Mainly I want to do maximum in the software
DSP domain and minimum as analogue.

Preamp is finished and waiting :-( :-( :-(

Some ideas how to make discreete sigma-delta A/D converter
with 10 mA current input ???? Please....
Now it is time to full dynamic digital and Neumann D01 is possibly
not only one way to do it.

xvlk
 
> Is it PREAMP? seems to be kind of ultralinear line amp.

Gain is 40. Maybe not enough for mike preamp. Though with 2K noise impedance, that may be all the gain you want. Maybe too much gain for hi-fi line amp. Doesn't matter since the output can't swing more than a volt (if at all).

If the output stage is converted to folded-cascode, as shown in SonsOfThunder's new thread, it would swing fine.

The "1Meg" gain pot has to be a typo, considering the 47K resistors loading it.

> I loved to draw. like a child. Really. Now, I am engineer.

A young engineer. You will learn not to insult others: it serves no purpose.
 
[quote author="PRR"]A young engineer. You will learn not to insult others: it serves no purpose.[/quote]
O.K., but sometimes to be young can be better,
because you dont know conventions.
And in some designs there are conventions, which
decrease parameters. And somewhere I see, that direction
is bad. To insult someone for design (which I see to be bad) have
some purpose.
Minimally he starts thinking about it and possibly make his design better.
What you see like insultation I see like cooperation or discussion.
Maybe my linguistic and humanistic bariers. Yes, I accept neurocybernetics like living philosophy.

xvlk
 
The idea was to put up a schematic and have the entire group make suggestions on improving it....consider it the preamp that 20 or 30 people helped to design. Not trying to hijack bcarso's space, but to help keep all the creative minds going until he gets around to showing us something.

It's like going to the movies and watching the previews until the main
event starts.
icon_biggrin.gif


In the mean time I have been simulating a FET/MOSFET frontend, with (5)2SK170BL and (1) BJT (bootstrapped) on each side of the signal phase, the entire stage is running at 59ma and 50v+/-. The output could be dealt with in a number of ways. A folded cascode seems like a great solution.

As to xvlk...no DSP today, tomorrow perhaps, today we want to build a good old analogue pre.
icon_wink.gif


Analag
 
Optimum.jpg

Nothing new about this setup. Adjust input dynamic range and gain with R1 and R2

Analag
 
[quote author="analag"]Nothing new about this setup? [/quote]
Replace zeners with adequate series LED diodes and then
you can use smaller C1 and C2.
I am not manufacturer, but my frend, he is studiing it
told me, that LEDS are noise superior (if compare to other devices,
series diodes, or zeners) mainly because in its producing higher purity
of proceses are used, because there are other semiconductors, than silicon.

xvlk
BTW yes, construction of superior analog preamps is
still interesting in digital times. Digital technique still can not preamp,
but now first experiments to construct fully digital ADC with hyper sensitivity (which may be better, than every preamp) are going on. Just this one:
http://www.cisl.columbia.edu/~presi/research.html

xvlk
 
That is an interesting ref., thanks for posting it xvlk.

One reservation pertains to the phenomenon of charge pumping in MOS structures. Some people at Stanford discovered this a long time ago when investigating analog switching of photodiodes, and I was plagued by it when working with a self-scanned photodioe array at UCLA circa 1980.

The gradual improvement in processes has resulted in the reduction of surface and interface state density, so the magnitude of the effect has been diminishing. But it sets a lower limit that is usually higher than so-called kTC noise.
 
>> PRR wrote: If the output stage is converted to folded-cascode, as shown in SonsOfThunder's new thread, it would swing fine.

> I haven't seen this and can't seem to find it, anyone?


Apologies; I meant "Winston O'Boogie".
 
Sometimes bad ideas make the best sounding device, especially if it's a mic pre...

Analag
 
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