Two quick questions:

[mattiasNYC]

1. Do you think there were "very nice people" in that crowd of white supremacists chanting "Jews Will Not Replace Us"?

2. What do you think of someone who thinks there were?

I have a ten-foot pole if your constitution is weak.



Seems some people here have a hard time understanding the implications of the answers to the questions. I'll go first:

1 - No. Hell no. Not a chance.
2 - I think they're an a-hole worthy of zero respect, and not unlikely also an anti-semite.

 

[mattiasNYC]

I'll bite......


1. If there were people there who naively thought they were there to protest the taking down of a statue (cuz they thought it was pretty or whatever) and were then surrounded by these hate groups....Maybe they were nice??

Are you seriously saying that a person can end up in a crowd like that, and when they start yelling anti-semitic chants they can't figure out how to NOT march? Is that it?

 

[pucho812]

I got this


All stories are true. Some actually happen.  ;D

 

[mattiasNYC]

I got this


All stores are true. Some actually happen.  ;D

The fact that you don't answer and instead answer like that speaks volumes about you.

 

[living sounds]

Playing devil's advocat I can imagine that delusional people can still be good people. But I admit having a very hard time thinking of neo nazis as "good people".

Rationality, universalism, tolerance etc. are not necessarily part of our default equipment as humans. Behaviour is determined by circumstances. And currently we are once again in a situation of history most thought would not repeat itself. But the groundwork for it, consisting of inequality, unregulated new media and rapid societal changes, has been laid...

Demonization of people never helps. We need to change the circumstances that nurture irrationality and hate.

But it's absolutely vital to fight back against acts of hate and even hate speech. Otherwise this type of behaviour gets encouraged and normalized. And that's Trump's failure, just as it was George Bush's failure not to prevent torture.

 

[mattiasNYC]

Yeah.

That would be some of the stupidest people on the planet then. I've been in marches and it doesn't take an IQ even above one's shoe size to figure out how to NOT march with people. Just walk off the path.

And I don't think the ones marching were the nice ones in ANYONE's eyes....... Unless they specifically say that......

That's what the president said. You don't trust the president?

But keep thinking happy thoughts.........

What happy thoughts? That the president calls anti-semites "very nice people"?

 

[mattiasNYC]

Show me the post where he said "Anti Semites are very nice people"

Did I say he posted that on a forum?

All you have to do is watch the news.

LOL....You should change this thread title to Two trick questions......

That's what people often say when answering the questions expose uncomfortable truths.

 

[bluebird]

1) Yes

2) I wouldn't think much about them.

I hate to say it but...What would Jesus do? You gotta have some empathy and compassion if anything is going to change. Those people marching are afraid. That's all. They are marching against a boogieman they have been told to fear generation after generation. They are literally fighting for their lives. They are really scared... Now If I were a black guy or Jewish, I would be scared of them. I would be shocked by their public display of FEAR. I would be so scared, I would want to kill them...Because after all, they want to kill me... Because they were told I wanted to kill them...Because somewhere back when, they really did kill lots of me...

You will never teach someone to not hate you, by hating them.  Martin Luther King Jr. Understood, preached, and lived this. And it took great courage to do so because deep down he was as afraid and fearful as we all are. Blows my mind.

I'm a white male in America and I own my advantages in this culture. So perhaps I don't have a right to speak about this. But I can say with truth and confidence, I want (deeply desire) equal civil rights for all races and cultures. And if that means becoming a minority in America and giving way to a more peaceful union, so be it.

 

[pucho812]

The fact that you don't answer and instead answer like that speaks volumes about you.

yeah I have a sense of humor you either don't or do not share my same sense of humor.

 

[mattiasNYC]

yeah I have a sense of humor you either don't or do not share my same sense of humor.

And do you think the thread was a joke?

 

[mattiasNYC]

1) Yes

2) I wouldn't think much about them.

I hate to say it but...What would Jesus do? You gotta have some empathy and compassion if anything is going to change. Those people marching are afraid. That's all. They are marching against a boogieman they have been told to fear generation after generation. They are literally fighting for their lives. They are really scared... Now If I were a black guy or Jewish, I would be scared of them. I would be shocked by their public display of FEAR. I would be so scared, I would want to kill them...Because after all, they want to kill me... Because they were told I wanted to kill them...Because somewhere back when, they really did kill lots of me...

Yet they're very nice people?

I can tell this forum isn't the place for me. The second people can reconcile anti-semitism and racism with being very nice we're on  different planets.

 

[bluebird]

You want to kill them all?

And what group of people do you consider all very nice people?

 

[pucho812]

And do you think the thread was a joke?

There are many here among us that think life is but a joke. 

 

[ruairioflaherty]

Mattias,

I never post on these threads because  I like most of you too much to get into arguments, this is not the place where I effect social change.

In this case I make an exception because I specifically value your contributions, but you are off base here.

Why ask the questions you are asking if there is only one right answer?  If you "know" the answers then state your opinion, which I'll likely agree with knowing your politics. 

Bluebird is addressing something fundamental in the American experience, the relentless and inevitable binary division of people into good and bad.  I am a good man but I have done bad things.  I am a bad man who has done good things. 

I almost started a thread today about the seeming loops we are in in the political conversations here.  I would like posters to start sharing their experiences, not trying to change other people minds (it never works).

You have experiences in your life as brown man that I do not have.  I have experiences as the parent of two adopted children that are somewhat atypical,  John Roberts has experiences that have shaped his opinions that I can learn from.

I remember being stopped on the street as a young adult in London once by police, a basic stop and frisk.  Their reason, we looked a little rough.  The fact that we were Irish added a little extra spice.  They turned out our pockets and treated us as criminals, separating us and checking our stories.  My friend has a broken watch in his pocket, a leaving gift from work colleagues in a bar he had worked at since he was 14.  Having no strap the cops naturally assumed it had been freshly ripped from someone's wrist.

This experience I imagine is a tiny tiny taste of what it feels like to be black, brown, Muslim etc in this country.  Some of the things happening in this country enrage me, just like many things did in my home country of Ireland (talking to you catholic church).

Let's share what we've been through, if we can do that I might even join in from time to time.

 

[mattiasNYC]

Mattias,

I never post on these threads because  I like most of you too much to get into arguments, this is not the place where I effect social change.

In this case I make an exception because I specifically value your contributions, but you are off base here.

Why ask the questions you are asking if there is only one right answer?  If you "know" the answers then state your opinion, which I'll likely agree with knowing your politics. 

Because hopefully by asking the question people will understand what the problem is. Sweeping a statement like the one in question under the rug is like turning a blind ear to a dog whistle. People seem to not understand how incredibly important that statement was. Just because there's a never-ending flood of stupid statements coming out of Washington doesn't mean this one should be ignored.

Think of it like this: At AA meetings participants stand up and say their name followed by "and I am an addict". The point isn't telling others you're an addict, they know that because that's why all of you are there, the point is telling yourself. By saying it out loud you're telling yourself, admitting to yourself, just what you are.

White supremacists marched on US streets chanting an anti-semitic slogan, and the president called them very nice people.

How can that be anything but borderline unbelievable? So the point is that some here avoid that like the plague and only talk around it. I'd rather hear people tell me straight up that white supremacists can be very nice people so that I know just who I'm talking to, than people being coy about it.

 

[mattiasNYC]

You want to kill them all?

Excuse me? I'm not entirely sure I said I want to kill them all. Did I say that?

And what group of people do you consider all very nice people?

I'm very open-minded and I reserve negative sentiments for things that matter on a grander scale. Like racism and anti-semitism. The effects of crappy ideologies like that we have already seen. We've seen slavery, and we've seen the Holocaust. I don't really care just what you do otherwise in life. You're nice to your kids? Ok, fine. You treat your pet dog nicely? Ok, fine. You put food on the table for your family? Great. You're cool to hang out with in a bar? Good for you. You think less of me because of my skin color? Sorry, but now I no longer care about the rest. You're just a despicable a-hole at this point, and likely an idiot.

Do I think anyone is through and through a good person? No, not really. Humans are imperfect. But we're looking at a scale I'm not sure "Nice to pets" will balance "Wants to segregate people based on race".

You feel me?

 

[ruairioflaherty]

Mattias,

Have no doubt that you and I are in agreement on Trump.  In fact I've agreed with almost every argument you've ever made on the forum, and you have done so much more eloquently than I ever could have.

You can point out any number of contradictions is people's points of view here, and there are many.  If I actually engaged in these conversations I would leave a trail of them too, no doubt.  The thing is it will change nothing.

I enjoy the conversations on here but resist the temptation to join in.  I will not change a single mind here.  Those who agreed with my points of view will continue to do so and those who don't…

Share what it feels like to be you, that is yours and no one can disagree.  We will all likely learn from it.

 

[bluebird]

You feel me?

Yes I feel you... You said it in a way in which I can be open to feeling you, and now with my defenses down, I can start to change the way I think about things and consider your point of view.

You think less of me because of my skin color? Sorry, but now I no longer care about the rest. You're just a despicable a-hole at this point, and likely an idiot.

But that's not gonna work. Nothings going to get better, your not teaching that person anything. All that will do is reinforce his own viewpoint. I know you know what I mean.

 

[mattiasNYC]

There you go again.... You are not some Jedi mind trick master.....The President said there were some nice people there, people who were there to protest the taking down of a statue that meant something to them.........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNLIwxMnJOw&feature=youtu.be&t=8m23s

(and at 7:22)

The Nazis are dumb a&% and if they want to spin that and cling to it as their only hope in their pathetic little world they think they have a chance in hell of creating to be more than this greatest day in their remaining existence, who gives a crap.....

People who fall victim to it along the way give a crap.

 

[mattiasNYC]

But that's not gonna work. Nothings going to get better, your not teaching that person anything. All that will do is reinforce his own viewpoint. I know you know what I mean.

I know, but you already knew that.

Having tried reason it gets exhausting and I'm fed up. That's all.