Two quick questions:

[mattiasNYC]

That is the point.

And this one too:

1 - No. Hell no. Not a chance.

Cheers

Ian

Look, people aren't made up of one trait or whatever, they're the sum of many different "parts". However, not all parts should be valued equally, because they don't have equal implications. Not particularly caring for infants for example might not result in more than a person not having children. Big deal. Liking dogs is nice. Loving to help other people is nicer (because we're not dogs so we benefit from "altruism").

However, anti-semitic sentiments rank pretty darn high on the importance-scale, far higher than what people think about dogs or ice cream or if they  are willing to buy a round at the pub. To me, a person being an anti-semite outweighs pretty much all other good traits that person has.

So if we're going to call someone "nice" or "bad" or whatever the terms are, then we can use what we know about a person and weigh all that and come to a conclusion.

Or, conversely: Feel free to tell me what positive traits are so important and great that they turn an anti-semite into a very nice person.

Now, obviously, you could then argue that "well how do you know what they thought?". Well here's the thing: If you go marching with people yelling things like these people yelled, then unless you're a complete idiot, or possibly deaf, you understand full well what their sentiments are. Thus;

- Either you agree with those sentiments, and keep marching with the group
- Or you disagree with those sentiments, and leave the group - which was very easy to do
- Or you disagree with those sentiments, but stay with the group, in which case in my opinion you're not much better.

Again, what kind of person decides to keep marching with a group of anti-semites despite not being one themself? In this specific case we could postulate that a person was there to march against taking down these statues and wasn't an anti-semite, and we'd be left with this:

- Here's someone who marches for the right to keep monuments of slave-owners, and that's more important than not being associated with and thereby support anti-semitism.

Think about that and how that sounds. It really doesn't sound all that great to me. It sounds so bad to me that I have an extremely hard time thinking that person was "very nice". Actually, come to think of it, isn't there a more probable scenario here? It walks and quacks like a duck. In this case the quacking says let me keep my monuments of racist slave-owners, and btw, Jews don't get to replace us white people. That's a "duck".

For reference in case the symbolism is somehow unclear:

Then:

Now:

Tell me someone is walking in that crowd and is a very nice person. I just don't see how that's possible.

PS: Yeah, I'm an atheist and I love science, so I acknowledge that anything is possible when considering quantum field theory.... but we don't live on such a small scale so for the purpose of using language in a reasonable way; no, not possible.......

 

[ruffrecords]

Or, conversely: Feel free to tell me what positive traits are so important and great that they turn an anti-semite into a very nice person.

There aren't any. Antisemitism is hideous and should be condemned out of hand but once again you miss the point. You originally asked if anyone in that crowd could be a nice person. The answer is of course yes. It is not hard to envisage circumstances where a nice person would be forced to take part (brow beaten) or volunteer to take part (undercover), hence my comment about crows.

Cheers

Ian

 

[Gold]

If you hold anti Semitic beliefs but never share them or act on them are you a bad person?

 

[tands]

Schrodinger's racist...

 

[mattiasNYC]

There aren't any. Antisemitism is hideous and should be condemned out of hand but once again you miss the point. You originally asked if anyone in that crowd could be a nice person. The answer is of course yes. It is not hard to envisage circumstances where a nice person would be forced to take part (brow beaten)

I doubt that would happen.

or volunteer to take part (undercover), hence my comment about crows.

Cheers

Ian

The broader context is of course the president's words. Do you think he was talking about undercover agents? He probably wasn't. I probably wasn't.

Is it possible Jesus Christ has returned to earth and was disguised and walked among those people just to check things out? Yes, it's possible. Now what?

 

[mattiasNYC]

If you hold anti Semitic beliefs but never share them or act on them are you a bad person?

Yes.

 

[ruffrecords]

I doubt that would happen.

Yet is is true a woman was kept in middle America as a sex slave for over a decade before she escaped. We talk all the time about people being radicalised. Mass suicides in California. Why do you find it so hard to believe someone could be brow beaten?

Cheers

Ian

 

[dmp]

1. Do you think there were "very nice people" in that crowd of white supremacists chanting "Jews Will Not Replace Us"?

2. What do you think of someone who thinks there were?

1. No, any decent person would have realized where they were pretty quickly and gotten the hell out.

2. It indicates they have deep seated prejudices, maybe not even apparent to themselves (many people are not very self aware).
The most telling indicator is comparison of behavior of different instances, for instance, how have they reacted to other protesters?
How did a this person react to black lives matter? NFL players kneeling? The bundy militia protesting the Bureau of Land Mgmt?

 

[JohnRoberts]

Fallacy of division. Obama wouldn't have been elected if it was up to the south only, Palin and McCain all the way. You're implying the white south favored Obama, because he won in the total US.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTLe4LSo

.

Not implying anything, but dismissing the arguments that all white people are racist.  I said what I said clearly enough, but to amplify, if the white population voted based on race alone, President Obama would not have been elected.

Why  promote racial enmity?  Politicians do it to win votes, but long term it is bad for the country.  It is much healthier to ignore race as the dominant defining characteristic.

I guess identity politics is all some young people know.   

JR 

 

[Gold]

Yes.

Who is the conservative? I don't like thought police. 

 

[mattiasNYC]

Yet is is true a woman was kept in middle America as a sex slave for over a decade before she escaped.

So you're saying it's possible a person in that crowd was a slave and dragged against their will to that march?

Given what they were marching also to keep monuments of pro-slavery people I suppose that makes it more likely.

We talk all the time about people being radicalised. Mass suicides in California. Why do you find it so hard to believe someone could be brow beaten?

Cheers

Ian

I don't disagree that someone could have been radicalized, but if you're going to use that term then I don't really think it makes much of a difference. I mean, would you accept the following proposition for example:

"That Muslim extremist suicide bomber is a very nice person. It's just that he's radicalized."

I wouldn't. Being radicalized doesn't eradicate what negative 'whateveritis'.

Mind you, I'm not proposing that being a radicalized racist/muslim/whatever is solely the fault of the individual, I absolutely agree that some are indoctrinated. But it doesn't all of a sudden make them more nice just because they're generally nice otherwise.

 

[mattiasNYC]

Not implying anything, but dismissing the arguments that all white people are racist.

Who here said "all white people are racist"?

I'll wait..... (something about not putting words in people's mouths)

Why  promote racial enmity?  Politicians do it to win votes, but long term it is bad for the country.  It is much healthier to ignore race as the dominant defining characteristic.

I guess identity politics is all some young people know.   

JR

Wasn't it you who voted for the current president who is absolutely making things far worse, and clearly showed that during the campaign trail?

And isn't it you who'd vote for him again?

 

[mattiasNYC]

Who is the conservative? I don't like thought police.

So you're saying that holding a negative view of someone because of their views = being the thought police?

 

[Gold]

So you're saying that holding a negative view of someone because of their views = being the thought police?

I said they didn't share or act on their views. You have no way of knowing what their views are. Yet they are a bad person. How very Catholic of you.

 

[mattiasNYC]

I said they didn't share or act on their views. You have no way of knowing what their views are. Yet they are a bad person. How very Catholic of you.

I know what their views are, because you just told me.

 

[Gold]

I know what their views are, because you just told me.

If I didn't tell you they would be a good person?

 

[mattiasNYC]

If I didn't tell you they would be a good person?

Assuming you don't know what's in their heads:

Are terrorists bad people before they commit their acts?
Are terrorists bad people before they decide to commit their acts?

 

[Gold]

You didn't answer the question.

 

[dmp]

Getting pretty philosophical here. If a racist shouts in a forest and no one hears it, is he really a racist?  ;D

 

[Gold]

Yes, he's working from a religious and philosophical framework that not everyone shares.