Two quick questions:

[mattiasNYC]

You didn't answer the question.

I don't think only what a person does is what defines them.

Now you can go ahead and answer.

 

[mattiasNYC]

Yes, he's working from a religious and philosophical framework that not everyone shares.

Nope. I'm an atheist.

 

[Gold]

I already did partially. I don't like thought police no matter what the thought. I reject the idea of good and bad thoughts. I accept the idea of a spectrum of good and bad actions.

You think we are all in purgatory until judgement day. You are a Catholic.

 

[mattiasNYC]

I already did partially. I don't like thought police no matter what the thought.

The point of the "thought police" was that thought was punished. I never proposed that thought should be punished, so you can feel free to stop with this strawman whenever you're ready.

I reject the idea of good and bad thoughts.

Ok. So then we know that to you a pedophile feeling romantic and/or sexual thoughts towards a child doesn't really have bad thoughts... it's just... what it is... and neither those people who think others are inferior due to their skin color... not really bad thoughts, just... thoughts...

I'm very happy to disagree with you on that.

You think we are all in purgatory until judgement day. You are a Catholic.

That's just stupid.

 

[bluebird]

Damn...

I think there is a grey area in you original question and that is whats throwing some people off. It just feels wrong judging a whole group of people like that. I'm not racist and I'm not an anti semite, in my heart of hearts I'm not "anti" any one group of people. 

Are all the people who work for a chemical company that pollutes local water bad people? Is a terrorist who detonates a bomb in a crowd because if he didn't his family would be killed by ISIS a bad person? Is a bank robber who is sent to prison then released 15 years later a bad person?

We all know the point your making. My reaction to the pictures you posted was...anger and hate. I don't need those emotions to fight against what those people stand for. In fact I would be more effective fighting against what they stand for with understanding and an open heart. Yea that's mushy but its true. 

More than anything those people are scared and ignorant. Or ignorant and scared. The only way to fix that is to try to understand why they feel that way, engage and educate them. This can be done. They are not a whole country, just a very small minority of confused, misinformed, backwards people.

Asking if they are very nice people misses the bigger issue.

That's all I'm gonna say about it.

 

[Gold]

The point of the "thought police" was that thought was punished. I never proposed that thought should be punished, so you can feel free to stop with this strawman whenever you're ready.

Strawman? You said people who have racist thoughts are bad people. That sounds like eternal damnation to me.

Ok. So then we know that to you a pedophile feeling romantic and/or sexual thoughts towards a child doesn't really have bad thoughts... it's just... what it is... and neither those people who think others are inferior due to their skin color... not really bad thoughts, just... thoughts...

I don't care what thoughts they have as long as they don't harm anyone.  Dude, you just said above that you said the bad part was that the thought was punished by the thought police. Now you are not making any sense.

 

[mattiasNYC]

Damn...

I think there is a grey area in you original question and that is whats throwing some people off. It just feels wrong judging a whole group of people like that. I'm not racist and I'm not an anti semite, in my heart of hearts I'm not "anti" any one group of people. 

Are all the people who work for a chemical company that pollutes local water bad people? Is a terrorist who detonates a bomb in a crowd because if he didn't his family would be killed by ISIS a bad person? Is a bank robber who is sent to prison then released 15 years later a bad person?

But those questions aren't addressing the same basic premise.  Are all workers bad people if the company polluted the environment you ask. Here's why that's a different question:

- Were they all aware said pollution was about to happen before it happened?
- Were they all aiming to pollute the environment as a goal in and by itself?
- Were they all aiming for some other goal while knowingly polluting?

And more importantly: Wanting to pollute the environment isn't the same thing as harboring anti-semitic sentiments. I explicitly said that there's more than one thing to what it is to be human, but that in my opinion some things are more important than others, and some views are more important than others.

For example:

We all know the point your making. My reaction to the pictures you posted was...anger and hate.

Good. That's what we should feel when we see those pictures. And I didn't even post anything from an extermination camp. See what I mean? This isn't the local company dropping chemicals in the local creek, awful as that may be. This is a different order of magnitude significance of 'beliefs'.

I don't need those emotions to fight against what those people stand for. In fact I would be more effective fighting against what they stand for with understanding and an open heart. Yea that's mushy but its true. 

More than anything those people are scared and ignorant. Or ignorant and scared. The only way to fix that is to try to understand why they feel that way, engage and educate them. This can be done.

Maybe. But I've tried to "engage and educate" people on far lesser issues with zero success, and I'm just fed up with it all... Hence the abrasive attitude some appear to be perceiving.

They are not a whole country, just a very small minority of confused, misinformed, backwards people.

Asking if they are very nice people misses the bigger issue.

That's all I'm gonna say about it.

I think you're forgetting the larger context here, and that two sides of something don't necessarily have equal magnitude effects but with opposite polarity (that was terribly phrased). Asking if they're nice people in and by itself makes less of a good point than asking that and having this conversation and then asking what it means when the president sends that message to people.

That's the larger context here.

If you're talking compassion and understanding and education, who do you think these people who already have 'backwards' views on this listen to: A Republican president who during his campaigning flirted with xenophobic, islamophobic groups and who just said there were nice people in this group - or some liberal?

The whole larger point here is what damage potus had done so far.

 

[mattiasNYC]

Strawman? You said people who have racist thoughts are bad people. That sounds like eternal damnation to me.

I don't recall having used the word "eternal" or any such indication of "time". Those are your words, not mine. Some people change. I've seen very heartwarming stories of former neo-nazis and racists who finally "got it".

I don't care what thoughts they have as long as they don't harm anyone. 

Ok. That's very scary. I'm not sure you've thought this one through.

Dude, you just said above that you said the bad part was that the thought was punished by the thought police. Now you are not making any sense.

Can you rephrase that please? I have no idea what that means.

 

[Gold]

I don't recall having used the word "eternal" or any such indication of "time". Those are your words, not mine. Some people change. I've seen very heartwarming stories of former neo-nazis and racists who finally "got it".

If they die holding racist views they are a bad person. That's forever, right?

Can you rephrase that please? I have no idea what that means.

You said the bad part of the thought police was punishing the thought. If you think some thoughts are bad and don't punish the person who has the thought you are letting evil stand. I see a giant contradiction.

 

[mattiasNYC]

If they die holding racist views they are a bad person. That's forever, right?

You mean from the point the person dies until the end of the universe? Who cares, the person is dead at that point!?

You said the bad part of the thought police was punishing the thought. If you think some thoughts are bad and don't punish the person who has the thought you are letting evil stand. I see a giant contradiction.

That's not a contradiction at all, it's just a matter of picking the lesser evil.

The only way a "thought police" would work is if it managed to actually forcefully change a persons beliefs against his or her will, also with the assumption that a state-entity defines just what allowed thoughts are. Just go back and read 1984 or whatever and you'll see where this comes from.

Just because I think a bad thought is bad and that people harboring sufficiently many or sufficiently bad thoughts are bad people doesn't mean I want the state to punish them for their thoughts. Between state punishment for thoughts and people being bad because their ideology sucks I'll take the latter any time.

Like I said, if you think an die-hard anti-semite can be a very nice person because they haven't engaged in any anti-semitic activities yet then I just have a different view on that than you do.

 

[Gold]

You mean from the point the person dies until the end of the universe? Who cares, the person is dead at that point!?

Someone can be a good person at 3:50 10/0517 and a bad person at 3:51 10/05/17?

That's not a contradiction at all, it's just a matter of picking the lesser evil.

Evil is on a sliding scale? I thought there were good and bad  people.

 

[mattiasNYC]

Someone can be a good person at 3:50 10/0517 and a bad person at 3:51 10/05/17?

If the pedo hadn't started the rape until 3:51 then according to you, 'yes'.

Any more brilliant questions?

Evil is on a sliding scale? I thought there were good and bad  people.

"evil" is a word that you brought into this conversation, so I'll let you answer the question yourself.

Your trolling is second to none by the way.

 

[Gold]

If the pedo hadn't started the rape until 3:51 then according to you, 'yes'.

No. I reject the idea of good people and bad people. You are arguing the Catholic position.

 

[bluebird]

Your trolling is second to none by the way.

Come on man, Paul is making a valid point, your judgment is total. He's not arguing for the sake of arguing.

 

[mattiasNYC]

No. I reject the idea of good people and bad people. You are arguing the Catholic position.

Not really seeing why you're insisting on talking about religion when I'm an atheist. But whatever, you know my personal position and I'm an atheist, so have at it.

 

[mattiasNYC]

Come on man, Paul is making a valid point, your judgment is total. He's not arguing for the sake of arguing.

Is it really?

Since you made it a point to interject, can you explain what "total judgment" is?

 

[Gold]

Not really seeing why you're insisting on talking about religion when I'm an atheist. But whatever, you know my personal position and I'm an atheist, so have at it.

You may not believe in a living god but you are arguing  the philosophical framework of the Catholic Church. I'm sure Radzinger could put me in my place as he is smarter than me.

 

[bluebird]

can you explain what "total judgment" is?

Ugg, Your standing behind a belief  system (racial/cultural equality) like its the word of God. You are fighting evil because God is on your side and you know it to be true.

 

[mattamatta]

???

I believe you guys are reading more into each others words than either of you are trying to say and have completely lost each others direction.  I see it happen a lot in political discourse where people end up arguing past each other against an extreme that neither really believes.

You don't really disagree as much as I think you've each mistakenly come to believe.  Try to get back to the middle.

 

[Gold]

I've made my point. I'm out.