UREI 1178 fet distortion

[Whoops]

I posted it because it is pertinent to this thread.

I know that you posted that with good intentions, and in no way I'm attacking you, just expressing an opinion. And also this post is general is not directed to you personally.

I really don't think posting those mods here is pertinent to the threat at all,
the link to those mods was already in this thread.

The Urei 1178, even though not exactly an 1176, is still a classic unit, used in the past and still being used by many people with great success and praise.
Those units, the 1176 and 1178 have a character on it's own and that's what people love about them, I personally also love those units.
I think JW mods and assertions are ridiculous, specially when directed to a classic unit that's well proved that provides a great outcome as is.

There's a lot of new members and less experienced people coming to this forum everyday and I think posting those mods here can really confuse people and make a new member think they have to do those mods to their classic Urei 1178 to make it sound good.

Of course any owner of any vintage equipment can decide to do whichever mods they want to their units, but modding the 1178 with those mods will just make it sound "better" for JW personally, to his taste that you might not even like, and will destroy the original character and essence of a well known unit.

 

[AudioIngenia]

I ask: Is it possible to make an improvement without modifying the "character"

 

[gyraf]

..basically, no - unless something is broken: The limitations of this unit are also at the same time it's strengths. Take it for what it is, use it for what it's good for...

/Jakob E.

 

[abbey road d enfer]

An improvement to the 1176/1178 would be a bypass switch.
It would require the addition of a lot of circuitry. It wouldn't change the character but would bring significant operational betterment.

 

[thomasdf]

I added relay bypasses on my 1176s, a simple board placed between the IO XLRs, and it's controlled with the 4 pos left switch : I've replaced the +8 position with a true bypass position. Quite a simple mod, but it required cutting a trace on the switch PCBs, if I remember correctly

 

[abbey road d enfer]

I added relay bypasses on my 1176s, a simple board placed between the IO XLRs,

The only issue I see with hard bypass is that the termination impedances change significantly, which could impact the response.
In a world of bridging connections, it should not matter, but when mixing bridging and matching, it could matter.

 

[Walrus]

Most of the bad rep of CD's comes actually from the Loudness wars, where audio files where overly digitally limited to have more volume than the neighbour and then transferred to a CD.......

Not to mention that a lot of the early CD's used the same EQ'd master as the Vinyl!

 

[thomasdf]

The only issue I see with hard bypass is that the termination impedances change significantly, which could impact the response.
In a world of bridging connections, it should not matter, but when mixing bridging and matching, it could matter.

What do you mean ? I am not sure I understand, since it's a hard bypass ? You're refering to what happens in the compressor when it's bypassed (and thus isolated) ?
Regarding the routing : in bypass mode > straight "wire" from in to out via the relay, and when not bypassed it's just a regular 1176 except the signal goes through a relay before going to the input pad and into a relay again after the output transformer, but nothing else.

 

[abbey road d enfer]

What do you mean ? I am not sure I understand, since it's a hard bypass ? You're refering to what happens in the compressor when it's bypassed (and thus isolated) ?
Regarding the routing : in bypass mode > straight "wire" from in to out via the relay, and when not bypassed it's just a regular 1176 except the signal goes through a relay before going to the input pad and into a relay again after the output transformer, but nothing else.

Think about what the source and receiver see in both cases, ON or bypassed.

 

[JohnRoberts]

I've made a living doing hi end upgrade mods and designs on the consumer side of the phonograph needle/DAC. I also designed the recording chain for Chesky Records make transformerless AKC C12, 24, tube mixers and ADC.

I killed a lot of brain cells designing improved phono preamps but stopped that pursuit decades ago.

That said, professional audio has to be reliable and work each time or you don't make any money.

yup

Semipro audio has to meet a price point.

to appeal to a mass market that will not pay for professional level features.

That's what I see here. Every one wants the sound of $10K mic for $85 and some sweat and thank the universe for it. It moves the art form along.

art form?

Going to 24/96 cleaned up the sound of everything and is cheap and plentiful.

yup, back in the 80s I wrote a magazine column in a recording magazine defending digital audio and the new fangled CD medium.

The high end is a bit different in the tube world. While every one wants everything to be reliable folks are willing to put up with some issues of reliability for better sound. They are also willing to spend $ on it for a sound that makes them feel great when they listen. Great bass, realistic mids and hi frequencies, a big open sound stage, great imaging. That's what I do on my side of the needle and do I it reliably.

For some people spending the money is what makes them feel better. It used to be doctors and dentists dropping tens of $k on record playback, now they drop tens of $k on home theaters.

I wouldn't try to stereotype this community, we represent a broad cross section of audio interests. Your experience is welcome.

JR

 

[JohnRoberts]

I ask: Is it possible to make an improvement without modifying the "character"

When trying to sell some SKU as sounding "better" whatever that means, it surely needs to sound different. Sometimes the king's new clothes are invisible.

JR

 

[MicMaven]

The high end is a bit different in the tube world. While every one wants everything to be reliable folks are willing to put up with some issues of reliability for better sound. They are also willing to spend $ on it for a sound that makes them feel great when they listen.

Sidebar Comment -- Your comment strikes a familiar chord! I recently served on the Board of Directors of a national charitable organization with a former CEO of Herman-Miller Corporation (a huge office furniture manufacturer) who shamelessly brags about serving on the Fender company's Board of Directors. He proudly recalls arguing with fellers at the factory over why they should use transistors instead of tubes in all the amplifiers. He unabashedly says the factory guys told him he "doesn't get it" and was unfazed when I told him he should stick to making office furniture. James

 

[Matt Syson]

I have had minor 'run ins with JW over the years with his claims that wiring must be silver wire in PTFE sleeving, no capacitors and so on.
I 'upgrade' various things starting off by stopping as much hum and hiss as possible and ensuring that output circuits are actually capable of driving (for example) 600 Ohm termination and lower the LF roll off (which can improve hum rejection on the feed to whatever destination it sees).
Getting musicians who can play, in a good sounding room with a good 'vibe' going is infinitely better than any hardware. Regarding the 'Bypass' switching for LA2A mentioned a short while ago, the input and outputs are transformers and rely on correct termination/source impedance for 'correct' response. Transformers are of course reactive not resistive so BOTH aspects could be altered by switching input direct to output so I suppose to get nearer to the response when the comp is in circuit you need a 1:1 transformer that has a composite characteristic (impedance frequency response etc) of BOTH the LA2A input and output transformer. This is of course getting a bit ridiculous but it depends where you want to 'compromise'. Hanging a couple of hundred metres (yards) of random twin screened cable on a transformer output is a good game too when you have to get a flat response end to end.

 

[abbey road d enfer]

Actually a proper by-pass for the 1178 would ignore the input & output controls and the "preamplifier" stage, which is where compression actually happens.
It can be done by connecting the output of the "input amp" to the input of the "line amp" via a 17dB attenuator.
This by-pass switch would retain the input/output impedances and isolate the compression AND distortion effects of the FET.

 

[Mr. Moscode]

Sidebar Comment -- Your comment strikes a familiar chord! I recently served on the Board of Directors of a national charitable organization with a former CEO of Herman-Miller Corporation (a huge office furniture manufacturer) who shamelessly brags about serving on the Fender company's Board of Directors. He proudly recalls arguing with fellers at the factory over why they should use transistors instead of tubes in all the amplifiers. He unabashedly says the factory guys told him he "doesn't get it" and was unfazed when I told him he should stick to making office furniture. James

Nope, he doesn't.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Sidebar Comment -- Your comment strikes a familiar chord! I recently served on the Board of Directors of a national charitable organization with a former CEO of Herman-Miller Corporation (a huge office furniture manufacturer) who shamelessly brags about serving on the Fender company's Board of Directors. He proudly recalls arguing with fellers at the factory over why they should use transistors instead of tubes in all the amplifiers. He unabashedly says the factory guys told him he "doesn't get it" and was unfazed when I told him he should stick to making office furniture. James

The only guy I know working at Fender these days is James Brown, he's working with the Van Halen stuff... (he knows his way working around tubes or transistors).

JR

 

[Mr. Moscode]

Actually a proper by-pass for the 1178 would ignore the input & output controls and the "preamplifier" stage, which is where compression actually happens.
It can be done by connecting the output of the "input amp" to the input of the "line amp" via a 17dB attenuator.
This by-pass switch would retain the input/output impedances and isolate the compression AND distortion effects of the FET.

If you're going balanced use 2 DPDT relays to TRULY bypass the whole thing. 1 in to 1 out and arrange it so when the relays are not activated it bypasses the comp. Then if it's off it's out of the signal path. Why stick more opamps in the path? Less is more IMSuperHO.

 

[Mr. Moscode]

The only guy I know working at Fender these days is James Brown, he's working with the Van Halen stuff... (he knows his way working around tubes or transistors).

JR

1 more than I know.

 

[Mr. Moscode]

I have no idea what a "big open sound stage" is?
I suspect it has to do with the placement of speakers and acoustic treatment of the room...

Every thing counts. But in audiophile speak "big soundstage" means front to back depth of image placement besides the left - right pan. It's like getting a holographic out of 2 channels. In power amps that I built and worked on it seems to come with lower NFB. My claim to fame is the Moscode line of amps & preamps started with NYAudio Labs and then produced by my company a few years back. I'm also pretty good with the Futterman OTL amp circuit. I've made those amps better, too. The moscode power amps are tubes driving Mosfets directly. The phono preamps are also a hybrid.

 

[Mr. Moscode]

Nothing wrong to me with the sound of the CD, actually no influence in sound on it's own, or better nothing wrong to me with the sound (in a final master) of a WAV 16bits 44.1khz.

It sounds better than tape to me, less hiss, no degradation at all every time you listen to it, and it sounds miles better than a Vinyl which has very high noise, distortion, limited frequency response (much limited than what we can actually hear), limited bass energy and stereo placement and it was always a compromise for the artist that had to see their Tape mixes and artistic decisions adapted (destroyed) to a very limited format. Vinyl was never used or chosen because it sounded great (it was always worse than tape), but because it was very cheap and easy to manufacture in an assembly line.

Most of the bad rep of CD's comes actually from the Loudness wars, where audio files where overly digitally limited to have more volume than the neighbour and then transferred to a CD, it has nothing to do with the CD format but to what was put into it. That's something that less knowledge people forget, as also forgetting that Loudness War started a long time ago, in Vinyl and tape eras, every artist, label, Producer and AR wanted their record louder than the competitors,

This is just a side note here, I don't want to hijack this thread at all.

CD was a fine format, and when it appeared in the 80s it became popular because it solved the issues and complaints people had about Cassette tapes and Vinyl, and it solved that very well.

I agree CDs solved a batch of problems but most early ones are unlistenable for me. There are sampling artifacts that are distracting, no dither either.

Well, without going off the deep end, I can hear the differences between all the formats. It's usually the most glaring in the top 3-4 octaves. I agree about the limiting wars but well recorded albums without excess limiting or mastering and with good mic placement can sound much better than over compressed pop music. I don't play in that arena. I can say this I'll take the vinyl version of Bill Evans Live at the Village Vanguard over any cd or sacd version that I've heard. Great recording and it's Bill Evans, Scott Lafaro and Paul Motian. Like I'm in the front row. 2 track to vinyl, minimal mastering.

This is a conversation for another thread, I agree.