StephenGiles
Well-known member
Pardon me for asking, but why do you all mess with valves? Do they really (really) sound better? Go on ......convince me........
Stephen
Stephen
Valves
- Thread starter StephenGiles
- Start date
Help Support GroupDIY Audio Forum:
Peter Simonsen
Well-known member
Simply...really..???
Just because I have never..and I repeat NEVER found one transistor design that gets me as close to the original sound in the room as my own all tube/x-former mic preamp designs does..sorry if this sounds too self basing ;-)..*GGG*...I cant help it its just so very true to my, and many a musicians ears..ymmv
Kind regards
Peter
Just because I have never..and I repeat NEVER found one transistor design that gets me as close to the original sound in the room as my own all tube/x-former mic preamp designs does..sorry if this sounds too self basing ;-)..*GGG*...I cant help it its just so very true to my, and many a musicians ears..ymmv
Kind regards
Peter
VacuumVoodoo
Well-known member
Well, are we opening a can of worms ? :twisted: 
I shall restrict myself to just few "facts and measurable phenomena" :wink:
Advantage:
Huge headroom, signal swings in the range of 100Vpp easily achievable
When in nonlinear region i.e clipping, a tube amp will produce mostly 2nd harmonic with low content of higher order harmonics.
Disadvantage:
Noisy, need dangerously high voltages, produce a lot of heat, bulky, wide parameter spread between same type from different sources.
The advantage of tubes becomes more apparent in guitar amplifiers, these are purposely designed to distort the signal in a specific way. Mostly 2nd harmonic.
Next. please.....
I shall restrict myself to just few "facts and measurable phenomena" :wink:
Advantage:
Huge headroom, signal swings in the range of 100Vpp easily achievable
When in nonlinear region i.e clipping, a tube amp will produce mostly 2nd harmonic with low content of higher order harmonics.
Disadvantage:
Noisy, need dangerously high voltages, produce a lot of heat, bulky, wide parameter spread between same type from different sources.
The advantage of tubes becomes more apparent in guitar amplifiers, these are purposely designed to distort the signal in a specific way. Mostly 2nd harmonic.
Next. please.....
[quote author="VacuumVoodoo"]bulky[/quote]
Yes they normally are bulky, but...
I built this small preamp for a friend some time ago:
http://stiftsbogtrykkeriet.dk/~mcs/RemPre2.jpg
Then I thought it would be fun to make a tube-powered version with the same size/features (3 inputs, on-board PSU, remote control) also. Here is the result: http://stiftsbogtrykkeriet.dk/~mcs/RemTPre_small.jpg
But I did cheat a bit and used a smaller volume pot :wink:
Best regards,
Mikkel C. Simonsen
Yes they normally are bulky, but...
I built this small preamp for a friend some time ago:
http://stiftsbogtrykkeriet.dk/~mcs/RemPre2.jpg
Then I thought it would be fun to make a tube-powered version with the same size/features (3 inputs, on-board PSU, remote control) also. Here is the result: http://stiftsbogtrykkeriet.dk/~mcs/RemTPre_small.jpg
But I did cheat a bit and used a smaller volume pot :wink:
Best regards,
Mikkel C. Simonsen
Kev
Well-known member
It's all very interesting and I am happy to use and to build with both.
BUT just for fun go and have a listen to what George M. has to say on stuff in general and transformers in particlular.
BUT just for fun go and have a listen to what George M. has to say on stuff in general and transformers in particlular.
Marik
Well-known member
Another advantage.
Since the tubes are much more linear devices than SS, they don't always require global negative feedback, which can give a very special sound in some situations.
Since the tubes are much more linear devices than SS, they don't always require global negative feedback, which can give a very special sound in some situations.
Kev
Well-known member
My pet theory is in that Negative Feed-Back thing.
Less seems to sound better in Power Amps and I'm sure it has much to do with the difference in pre-amps. ... the gain circuits ... perhaps also EQs but that is more complicated ... (another time).
I also think that simple circuit have much going for them. George and I think Dave H talk about people copying their circuits and they will still get it wrong. The is probably much matching and circuit tweaking to get the results they do get.
I simple circuit that can cope with some variation in components and build ... BUT ... still sound good will be the sort of unit that you will want to use again and again ... good reliability and good predictability. This is a perfect candidate for DIY.
Less seems to sound better in Power Amps and I'm sure it has much to do with the difference in pre-amps. ... the gain circuits ... perhaps also EQs but that is more complicated ... (another time).
I also think that simple circuit have much going for them. George and I think Dave H talk about people copying their circuits and they will still get it wrong. The is probably much matching and circuit tweaking to get the results they do get.
I simple circuit that can cope with some variation in components and build ... BUT ... still sound good will be the sort of unit that you will want to use again and again ... good reliability and good predictability. This is a perfect candidate for DIY.
Kev,
I love ya man :wink: , but sometimes I start feeling dyslexic when trying to read what you wrote... what's a "pet theory"? What was that about you and George (think whaaa?) and Dave Hill? I know you're refering to the Lynn Fuston interviews but wha...?
:grin:
-E
I love ya man :wink: , but sometimes I start feeling dyslexic when trying to read what you wrote... what's a "pet theory"? What was that about you and George (think whaaa?) and Dave Hill? I know you're refering to the Lynn Fuston interviews but wha...?
:grin:
-E
Kev
Well-known member
:green: ... yes I am dyslexic
and my keyboard needs replacing
it drops letters so
things ... becomes thing etc
sorry
I should slow down when I type and shouldn't write four replies at once spread across three forums as I am right now ...
a pet theory ...
and no, it's not about Dave's cat.
A pet theory is a theory that you have held for a long time but may not talk about much as it could be difficult to explain or might be out of fashion.
George is never affraid to spit out his theories in any form. "Transformers suck" ... " the prosumer industry is full of bullshit " etc
It probably needed a coma in there or something ??? ... NOT ... George and I
but George and (I think) Dave H. ... blah blah ....
Dave Hill was taking about the construction of circuits ... even with the circuit and the build technique he talked about spending 2 years to get something to work to his satisfaction. Scott H also talked about his custom toroid and the proximity in his box.
and the Dan said about his EQ points ...
" ... because they did ... "
:green:
Tubes ... or not
Four different designers we all talk much about and four very different points of view.
and my keyboard needs replacing
it drops letters so
things ... becomes thing etc
sorry
I should slow down when I type and shouldn't write four replies at once spread across three forums as I am right now ...
a pet theory ...
and no, it's not about Dave's cat.
A pet theory is a theory that you have held for a long time but may not talk about much as it could be difficult to explain or might be out of fashion.
George is never affraid to spit out his theories in any form. "Transformers suck" ... " the prosumer industry is full of bullshit " etc
It probably needed a coma in there or something ??? ... NOT ... George and I
but George and (I think) Dave H. ... blah blah ....
Dave Hill was taking about the construction of circuits ... even with the circuit and the build technique he talked about spending 2 years to get something to work to his satisfaction. Scott H also talked about his custom toroid and the proximity in his box.
and the Dan said about his EQ points ...
" ... because they did ... "
:green:
Tubes ... or not
Four different designers we all talk much about and four very different points of view.
Thanks Kev :grin:
I still love (and I'm sure we've allllllllll heard it) that guy that comes in to the studio and asks the dreaded... ... ... "So what's the BEST ....?"
... ... ...
crickets ... crickets ...
... ... ... ...
So why didn't Lynn ask George what he thinks of tubes :grin: :grin: :grin:
I still love (and I'm sure we've allllllllll heard it) that guy that comes in to the studio and asks the dreaded... ... ... "So what's the BEST ....?"
... ... ...
crickets ... crickets ...
... ... ... ...
So why didn't Lynn ask George what he thinks of tubes :grin: :grin: :grin:
StephenGiles
Well-known member
Thanks for your thoughtful comments guys. I suppose everybody's ears are different, and I just can't tell the difference and prefer to work with low voltages anyway. That said, I have a Carvin guitar amp which watt for watt is not so loud as my transistor amp!
Stephen
Stephen
Tubes are a lot more romantic than a small piece of black epoxy with a little piece of doped silicon that sells for 1/2 a cent. Plus, they glow at night!
Something about the electrons leaving the conductor, traveling thru a vacuum, then back into a conductor.
If you want your precious low level signal going thru 100 cheap transistors on a chip not meant for audio, by all means build a 5532 based preamp. And overdrive it so it sounds butt ugly.
Then go overdrive a EF804 into some hi-nickel, and tell me if you still hate tubes and transformers!
I imagine George is a very clean man.
cj
Something about the electrons leaving the conductor, traveling thru a vacuum, then back into a conductor.
If you want your precious low level signal going thru 100 cheap transistors on a chip not meant for audio, by all means build a 5532 based preamp. And overdrive it so it sounds butt ugly.
Then go overdrive a EF804 into some hi-nickel, and tell me if you still hate tubes and transformers!
I imagine George is a very clean man.
cj
Ooh ooh ooh negative feedback and tubes! I remembered there's a pretty good article about that here:
http://www.normankoren.com/Audio/FeedbackFidelity.html
and part 2:
http://www.normankoren.com/Audio/FeedbackFidelity2.html
I think the world is big enough for tubes, solid state, chips, discreet components, and even a megaphone or two. I'm drawn to tubes because they seem a lot more forgiving to me.
Also, people mention heat as a drawback, but at least the heat generated by tubes is radiating off of a decent amount of surface area. You just need to give yourself some ventilation and decent real estate between tubes. Transistors are smaller, but they get hot, too Those nickel-sized wonders sometimes need to be bolted to a chunk of Richard Serra-inspired metal sculpture before they flame.
-neil
http://www.normankoren.com/Audio/FeedbackFidelity.html
and part 2:
http://www.normankoren.com/Audio/FeedbackFidelity2.html
I think the world is big enough for tubes, solid state, chips, discreet components, and even a megaphone or two. I'm drawn to tubes because they seem a lot more forgiving to me.
Also, people mention heat as a drawback, but at least the heat generated by tubes is radiating off of a decent amount of surface area. You just need to give yourself some ventilation and decent real estate between tubes. Transistors are smaller, but they get hot, too Those nickel-sized wonders sometimes need to be bolted to a chunk of Richard Serra-inspired metal sculpture before they flame.
-neil
thermionic
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2004
- Messages
- 1,671
Pets are less likely to curl up around solid-state power amps (unless they're class a).
Certain (expensive) modern valve audio can sound virtually indistinguishable from its transistor / FET counterpart (recently a London hi-fi dealer told me his clients thought EAR valve-amps "too clinical") in my experience.
On the internet and elsewhere I have read certain parties within the audio industry decry the reliability of valves as a technology ? I would've thought if this was the case thousands of aircraft would fall from the sky, particularly in Russia.
To tell you the truth, I love silicon just as much.
Valve gear tends to be more forgiving than s/state as previous posters have mentioned, so one benefit could be that it's less easy to get something to sound "bad" with valves, although in the case of vintage equipment part of this could be due to colouration obscuring certain revealing detail.
Cheers,
Justin
Certain (expensive) modern valve audio can sound virtually indistinguishable from its transistor / FET counterpart (recently a London hi-fi dealer told me his clients thought EAR valve-amps "too clinical") in my experience.
On the internet and elsewhere I have read certain parties within the audio industry decry the reliability of valves as a technology ? I would've thought if this was the case thousands of aircraft would fall from the sky, particularly in Russia.
To tell you the truth, I love silicon just as much.
Valve gear tends to be more forgiving than s/state as previous posters have mentioned, so one benefit could be that it's less easy to get something to sound "bad" with valves, although in the case of vintage equipment part of this could be due to colouration obscuring certain revealing detail.
Cheers,
Justin
kent
Well-known member
CJ is being too subtle. Tubes aren't just romantic, they're SEXY! Little glowing glass bulbs of love!
cheers,
kent
cheers,
kent
