Help me to choose the right inductor (DIY)

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warpie

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 7, 2009
Messages
1,588
I decided to wind my own inductors but I'm a bit lost after all this information in the forum, so any help is much appreciated  :)

The maximum inductance for my inductors would be 35mH and lowest 2mH.

After spending the last couple of days reading, I concluded to the following:

Core:
- RM8 N41, AL160, +/-3% (gapped)

- RM8 N48, AL630, +/-5% (gapped) with centre hole

- RM8 N48, AL630, +/-5% (gapped) without centre hole

Bobbin:
- 8pin for RM8

Clamp:
clamp for RM8

So, apart from the bobbin and the clamps (which hopefully are the right ones) which core is better for my application?
N41 vs N48?
Higher AL(worst tolerance) Vs Lower AL(better tolerance)?
With centre hole Vs without centre hole?

and finally what gauge wire? Will anything between 32 and 36 will do?

Hope I'm not asking too much  :)
 
I haven't made any inductors with ferrite, but I can tell you that it will definitely take some trial an error. If you're only making a couple or so, then I'd go out and buy a couple of each to try as they're cheap enough. The AL160 will take a lot more turns to get to the required H, but you're only going up to 35mH, so it won't matter. I pick that one! :)

Wire, the thickest you can fit will give you the lowest DCR and highest Q. Again, you'll have to experiment to get it "perfect" but I'd start with 32AWG myself, if that's what you have, and go thinner if it doesn't fit.

No idea which core will be best, but the AL160 should be able to get you to the required H, but like I said, I've never used these cores so I don't know how much wire you can actually fit on there.  3% or 5% won't make a bit of difference, if you're learning and doing this by hand, you'll have better luck matching them by hand/measuring.  Which of course means that each one will be a little different, but... does it matter really?

Also, there was a member in the EU winding these at relatively low prices, if you're only going to do 2-4, it will be much more cost effective to order his.  TRUST ME.  If you want to do a bunch and/or want to learn how, then I'd still say talk to him and ask him for a recommendation on all this, as I think he was using RM-something-or-other cores.

cheers, good luck!
 
Important is: what is the inductor for?

How much current, at what frequency, will it need to withstand without saturating.

And how much parasitic capacitance is accetable.

Jakob E.
 
Say what you want to do with it.  But here are some general guidelines:

The difference in ferrite core material has to do with how and when it saturates.

If you are using it for audio signals in a Pultec type EQ,  you probably can't saturate an RM8 core of either material, the numbers of turns are low enough the attenuated signal is low enough (thanks ricardo).

(Carnhill uses N48 on some of their RM7 inductors).

The hole in the middle can accept a ferrite adjustment slug (ferrite screw in sleeve that fits in the core).  The adjusters can let you get the inductance to match between two inductors for instance.

The number of turns you can put on an RM8 bobbin is more than on a RM7 bobbin.  So it depends on the maximum inductance you want to achieve for your inductor what core size and material you choose.

The higher AL materials generally saturate at lower flux levels.
The larger cores saturate at higher levels.
The cores with holes saturate lower than the ones without holes.
The gapped cores saturate at levels lower than the un-gapped cores.
 
Thank you for the comprehensive explanations  :)

It's all pretty new to me when it comes to inductors so bear with me...

The inductors are for an EQ circuit, which is not finished yet, I'm just experimenting with it in spice.

For me at this point is more important to learn a bit more about inductors and that's why I decided to experiment myself rather than getting them off the shelf.
I just thought I'll get a coil winder, some cores and start playing around  8)

As I said the L values start from around 35mH for 1Khz  to 2mH for 24Khz or so.

Now some more dumb questions:
- What gauge wire would be more suitable? I guess the thinner the harder to wind by hand but would 32 or 34/36 be OK?
- What's the audible effect of a saturated coil?
- I read that it's better to wind some more turns (than the formula suggests) and then measure the inductance. But, in order to do this you have to rub off the enamel.  If it takes some trial an error to get the correct results, do you end up with a wire that is rubbed off in many places? BTW, how do you rub off the enamel without destroying the wire?

i have more questions but I'll stop here  :)


mitsos said:
Also, there was a member in the EU winding these at relatively low prices, if you're only going to do 2-4, it will be much more cost effective to order his.  TRUST ME.  If you want to do a bunch and/or want to learn how, then I'd still say talk to him and ask him for a recommendation on all this, as I think he was using RM-something-or-other cores.

mitsos, do you mean Chrion? If so, AFAIK he's not around any more.
 
There are LOTS of variables in this thing. More than you want to think about.  I would get a few cores and play around.  You don't need a winder for this kind of thing, not at first anyway. If you have a power drill, grab a threaded rod that fits in your bobbin and put it in the mandril. Secure the bobbin on the rod with nuts/washers.  Take the formula and throw it out the window for now. Instead, grab some wire and wind 100 turns on your bobbin, then measure the inductance. IIRC it goes up with the square of the turns, but also, the further you get from the core, the more inductance you get per turn, at least on toroidal inductors.  So, for example, you'll get more L/turn on the second layer than on the first layer, even more on the third, more on the fourth, etc.

As for wire gauge, it depends.  Pick one and start.  Grab some 32 or whatever you have around, wind 100 turns and see where you get in terms of L and space on the bobbin.  If it looks like the bobbin will be half empty when you're done, use thicker wire, and vice versa. 

hmm, audible effect of saturated coil... Distortion? I don't know actually, I'm sure there is a theoretical answer, I'd ask CJ or Ian.  A saturated core would be less efficient at whatever it's doing, so the LC(R) circuit might resonate at an unexpected frequency, as if it had less L than expected. But I'm guessing here. When you get some wound, your assignment is to do some empirical tests!  ;D

Rubbing off enamel in a small area is no problem, the possibility of shorts after you wind more enameled wire on top is minimal. Of course, if this were a high voltage transformer, it might be a different story, but we're talking EQs here. I think I used an X-acto blade to rub off the enamel last time I did this. You can also try flux + a very hot iron, I don't remember how well that worked.... or not.

Have fun, I like winding coils, I really, really, really need a reason to buy a CNC coil winder. Would be so much fun. But then I'd never get anything done and probably end up living in a cave piled to the ceiling with transformers.
 
You are asking all the questions I asked, I am not an expert in this, just someone that has travelled your path before.

The reason you wind more turns is so that you don't have to add turns.  It is adding turns that is problematic once you have "rubbed off the enamel".  You don't have to rub off the enamel lots, in fact just once if you are careful, because removing the turns doesn't break the wire, and if the wire is straight not wound it doesn't create measurable inductance.  That is to say you can hook up an inductance meter to the wire, and the inductance will fall as you unwind.  With ferrite cores you can snap the core on and off pretty easily (not so easy with toroids).

+1 to the idea of wind 100 turns and see where you are.

How to: rubbing off the enamel
  1) much of the wire you will find is designed so that high heat soldering turns the enamel into flux (bad flux, but flux sort of ) but 2) razorblade scraping wire on a piece of wood does the trick for any enamel. 

Audibility of saturation.
The shape of the distortion resulting from saturation is different based upon material, but generally you are attempting NOT to saturate the coil.  The topic of inductance and what materials have what AL is something of a black art, with real work started by Bell Labs I think, is interesting, and was pretty much wild experimentation with materials and how to process them (sequence of heat and cooling matters ... lots of trial and error.  Interesting reading, not particularly illuminating for building an EQ except the "boy I am glad bell labs did that so I don't have to" feeling you get!.)

Pultec originally used a toroidal core (hard to wind, can be done by hand but dedicate days if you are like me) I believe the common wisdom is that they used a light grey colored toroidal core the material is though to be MPP (this is powedered material sort of sintered (look it up) into a core material.  The sintering creates tiny gaps in the material and keeps the AL value lower and saturation levels higher. MPP is supposed to saturate more gradually than ferrite. ). I have produced copies of pultec inductors in the approximate size and material as best I can and all I can say confidently that they were no where near saturating the core in the Pultec circuit.

So you want a material that will work for your values in audio

Generally you are looking for a gapped core with an AL of around 400.  AL of 630 is fine.  Ungapped core will have AL values so high that you will take very few turns to do the job, small number of turns will saturate more.

I did some experimentation using various materials, on a core with "taps" at 21mH to 175mH approximately (about what is  used in the Pultec eq).  I found that I could saturate the coil will Audio levels at 20hZ at the LOWEST TAPS on the UNGAPPED core.  I was testing with an Oscilloscope not audibly. I was measuring the RMS voltage needed to saturate the core (there is a thread here on how to do that search ferrite audio core saturation or something, let me know if you can't find it.  Use CJ's initials (Mr Inductor... with an Axe).)

I have data on this if you are interested, but I could only saturate the gapped cores at about 20dB, which is a level never seen in the attenuated levels INSIDE an EQ (before the make up gain).


The amount of wire that fits on a bobbin is calculated using what is called "circle stacking" and you can look up that term and "reel factor", you calculated the depth of the bobbin reel, and the width of the bobbin reel, and the amount of space you want to leave and that gives you an area and that area has "circles" stacked in it (cross section of the wire is a circle).  One circle per turn.  I have a spreadsheet for this. 

Here is some wire data, in inches, with wire gauge, diameter with enamel, resistance per foot. 

Wire Gauge Thick w/coating Resistance / Foot
22 0.0281 0.01614
26 0.0182 0.04081
30 0.0121 0.1032
32 0.0097 0.1641
34 0.0078 0.2609
36 0.0063 0.4148
38 0.0051 0.6596
40 0.0041 1.049
42 0.0033 1.635
44 0.0025 2.554


Here are some other useful statistics, I have a spreadsheet that calculates all of this but it is a bit complicated and you might just want to do your own.

How many turns fit on a bobbin (this is not the ideal number assuming a perfect circle stack, this is what I can achieve (barely) winding carefully with a drill)
RM8    
(Gauge) (Turns)
32 463
34 716
36 1,097
38 1,674
40 2,591
 

You can calculate the Q factor by using resistance per foot and the length of the wire
RM8 Core turn lengths in inches
Shortest turn Longest Turn  Average length of a turn
1.22836169 1.94464421 1.58650295



Using the AL factor you can calculate a number of turns for each tap.  And you can do the trial and error method.  But I suggest that you do it more simply, because you are using RM8. 

1) Make a "test bobbin" with 100 turns of wire on it.
2) Assemble the core.
3) measure the inductance in some way (meter, other method)
4) Remove the bobbin and keep it to do this next time.
5) You now have an EXACT AL for that EXACT CORE (each core varies).
6) Plug that AL into your spreadsheet and wind the exact number of turns it specifies on a different bobbin.
7) repeat

The result is easily within 5%, and if you have that little trimmer screw you can get it much closer (the screws cost like $2 a piece, require a core with the hole, and are not really needed).  If you look at the frequency effect of 5% differences in inductance you will realize that you don't need it within 5%, never mind closer.

If you want the spreadsheet i use, it is a google sheet, and I am happy to share, but I need an email so PM me.

In general on the "how many henries will fit" category

At AL 400 with 36 gauge wire on an Pot Core 26 x 16 core you will get 420mH using 1024 turns and your DCR for that coil will be 70 ohms or so.

At AL 630 with 32 gauge wire on an RM8 core you will get your desired 35mH using 235 turns and your DCR will be 5.11 6.3 ohms (DCR will be less than that actually because that is averaging a full core and your turns will be shorter with a half full core). Correction, I was using a Pot Core 26x16 bobbin size
 
The knowledge in this place and the will to help never cease to amaze me  :)

Many thanks!!

Time to place an order and let the fun begin! Looking forward actually  ;D

PS. bruce0, I found CJ's post, thanks!
 
bruce0 said:
If you are using it for audio signals in a Pultec type EQ,  you probably can't saturate an RM8 core of either material, the numbers of turns are low enough.
Just a small point.

If you don't want to saturate the coil, use MORE turns.

Warpie, download the datasheets by various core makers.  There's loadsa good info and you will become an inductor guru.  A good one to start with is from RS Components on the RM cores they sell.  Also Ferroxcube but they may no longer be around.
 
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