A democracy in crisis

[JohnRoberts]

Labelling them as criminals, using a pejorative description, is textbook political spin: you're projecting a belief system where all poor non-white immigrants travelling to the US are "illegals".

Are you suggesting that some fraction of those Honduran migrants are "legal" and following established procedure for gaining legal entry to the US?

How plausible does this sound:
A "white" nationalist is a nationalist who is "white". Nothing political is inferred by "white", it's just an accurate description of their skin colour.

As you well know the "white" modifier attached to nationalist does not infer but specifies a racist (white supremacy) extreme variant of nationalism

Apparently the "white" nationalist "terrorist" in Pittsburgh, was fed up with all the "illegals" the "jews" were bringing in to "invade" his country.

He is a "terrorist" white nationalist...  I try to avoid breaking news coverage which is mostly conjecture, and media blaming President Trump for everything negative.  Sadly this media attention will likely spread fear and perhaps copy cats, that is the implicit goal of terrorism, while this guy may lack any rational motivation. 

No sh*t words have impact.

I have been saying exactly that right here for years.

Politics is subjective so we all view the actions of the other team differently.  It is unfair to hang the extreme behavior of isolated unhinged individuals on political leaders. We didn't blame Bernie Sander's when one of his followers attempted to murder Steve Scalise, while democratic leadership has openly called for incivility.

Some recent Democratic commentary

"You cannot be civil with a political party that wants to destroy what you stand for, what you care about,"

While not exactly democratic leadership

“Let’s make sure we show up wherever we have to show up,” she said at a rally in Los Angeles on Saturday. “And if you see anybody from that Cabinet in a restaurant, in a department store, at a gasoline station, you get out and you create a crowd. And you push back on them. And you tell them they’re not welcome anymore, anywhere.”

From where I sit it appears the left is openly calling for public hostility and "incivility". In fact supporters have taken Maxine literally agressively confronting legislators and senior administration members. 

This sounds like how the left characterizes President Trump, so no doubt opinions vary.

IMO this rhetoric can end badly.  Leaders from both sides need to work to cool passions (and some try), but I doubt this will recede  before the midterm vote. This hyper partisan enmity is helping both parties raise huge piles of money, so why stop what is working?

JR

PS: I think I recently commented that political spin is like painting with words. Sorry if you read more into my words than I presented. Illegal is not exactly the same as criminal. If I wanted to paint that picture I could have easily wrote criminal illegal immigrants, while I consider the coyotes helping them (for money) criminal.   

 

[living sounds]

A single congresswoman is not the President of the United States. No president in living memory, not even Nixon, ever ever went remotely as low as Trump.

And what was Maxine Waters protesting? An administration taking children  away from their parents and locking them up in cages.

Ask yourself what you are defending here. There's still time to leave the rabbit hole.

 

[JohnRoberts]

A single congresswoman is not the President of the United States. No president in living memory, not even Nixon, ever ever went remotely as low as Trump.

Nixon drafted me into the army so I am not a Nixon fan, but he did open up China to the west.

And what was Maxine Waters protesting? An administration taking children  away from their parents and locking them up in cages.

You mean like this 2014 image?

Immigration law is tangled up and I blame both parties for this.

Ask yourself what you are defending here. There's still time to leave the rabbit hole.

Ah there's the personal insult....  :

Don't you realize this is yet another political strategy to keep us angry at each other so we don't actually listen to each other and learn how much we have in common. 

Don't be played.  8)

JR

 

[Banzai]

Are you suggesting that some fraction of those Honduran migrants are "legal" and following established procedure for gaining legal entry to the US?

Your question is already loaded with bias: the entire caravan is "legal".

Every single one of them has the right to show up at a US port of entry, and request asylum. That is the established procedure for gaining legal entry to the US.

PS: I think I recently commented that political spin is like painting with words. Sorry if you read more into my words than I presented. Illegal is not exactly the same as criminal. If I wanted to paint that picture I could have easily wrote criminal illegal immigrants, while I consider the coyotes helping them (for money) criminal. 

This shows how absurd the label is: you have illegals who are law abiding (legal illegals), and illegals who are criminals (illegal illegals)

 

[JohnRoberts]

Your question is already loaded with bias: the entire caravan is "legal".

In case I wasn't clear, they broke Mexican law by breaking through the southern border fence.

Their apparent intent is to ignore US immigration procedure and therefore law .

Every single one of them has the right to show up at a US port of entry, and request asylum. That is the established procedure for gaining legal entry to the US. Unless the US decides to go rogue, it is obliged to process every asylum request it receives.

Yes, but only for extreme cases. Migrants from Canada and Mexico that don't meet the standard for entry get returned to their home country immediately, but policy for more distant nationals involves court hearings and that system is swamped with delays, not to mention most don't even show up for their hearings. It is a loophole they have been exploiting for years.

What these people haven't done, is violate US immigration laws merely by walking towards the border.

No, this is mainly political theater but IMO misguided. 

Mexico has offered them asylum that has been declined so if they were indeed desperate refugees they should welcome asylum anywhere, this appears coached and orchestrated for political ends (but I repeat misguided as it will likely have the opposite effect  from intentions.)   

This shows how absurd the label is: you have illegals who are law abiding (legal illegals), and illegals who are criminals (illegal illegals)

Yes, this is all pretty absurd.

Their intent to take advantage of loopholes and gaps in immigration law do not make this right.  There are millions following the rules and procedures, waiting in queue to become US citizens legally. These attempts to jump the line is unfair to all them.

A Honduran from a second caravan was just killed at the Mexican border (shot by a rubber bullet)...  Sovereign governments have the "right" and responsibility to control their borders, and will.

This is unlikely to end well. They are getting bad advice to continue. 

JR 

 

[Banzai]

In case I wasn't clear, they broke Mexican law by breaking through the southern border fence.

They're 'illegals' because they broke a fence, with the Guatemalan police standing right next to them? The Mexican state was also obviously incapable of controlling a crowd of 7000 people, helpless as they watched their country be "invaded" by famished refugees?

This rhetoric is ridiculous. There are football stadiums in Mexico that can seat close to 100'000 people. No-one in mexico is afraid of 7000 refugees, and if they're in Mexico, it's because they allowed them in.

Their apparent intent is to ignore US immigration procedure and therefore law .

Their "apparent intent" is to apply for asylum at the border! It's been documented that's exactly what these caravans do:
Your own law states these people MUST be on American soil to apply for asylum, so they're following your legal procedure!!!

Your 'loopholes' also have nothing to do with these migrants – nothing right or wrong about using the law to your advantage (your own President openly brags about using 'loopholes' to his advantage).

What is it you always say: "Don't like it? Go out and vote!"
If you don't like your immigration laws, you know what to do! 

Mexico has offered them asylum that has been declined so if they were indeed desperate refugees they should welcome asylum anywhere, this appears coached and orchestrated for political ends (but I repeat misguided as it will likely have the opposite effect  from intentions.)

Because you know what it's like to be a refugee/asylum seeker, and what a refugee should and shouldn't do?
You know what it's like to live in Honduras?
All from personal experience?

Their intent to take advantage of loopholes and gaps in immigration law do not make this right.  There are millions following the rules and procedures, waiting in queue to become US citizens legally. These attempts to jump the line is unfair to all them.

Again, your own law states they MUST be on US soil to apply for asylum.

You're being incredibly disingenuous by claiming these people are 'breaking the rules'.

Sovereign governments have the "right" and responsibility to control their borders, and will.

Thanks for the Israeli rhetoric used to justify wholesale murder. It's 7000 people: you do not need military or deadly force to control 7000 people, half of which are women and children. If this ends badly, it's because your country is run by a nut.

 

[dmp]

So I see the same thing going on in this thread as in the national news of the USA. Trump says something inflammatory, often completely contradicting facts, and it takes over all the oxygen in the room, which then dominates the discussion. For instance Trump said this morning he would end birthright citizenship (granted in the 14th amendment in the Constitution)with an executive order. This is Ridiculous, but what is not being talked about?

- The Republican tax cut to the wealthy blew a whole in the budget and Republicans are planning to cut Social Security and Medicare. Several Republicans (like McConnell) are on tape saying this.
- Trump and Republicans have repeatedly tried & voted to undo the ban on pre-existing conditions, yet they claim the opposite.  When they blatantly lie about something like this, why do people even consider voting for them?
- Trump's rhetoric has radicalized his supporters and incited violence in the USA. He congratulated a Republican congressman that physically assaulted a reported. He calls the media the enemy. He has tweeted violent imagery against his political opponents. He has called for his political opponents to be imprisoned.
- Trump's recklessness has put the country in danger (using insecure phones that hostile countries have been able to listen to)
- Trump's own taxes are something he keeps secret, reportedly because he has evaded taxes, like others (Manafort) in his administration. They are un-American and criminal.
- Trump's trade war has now endangered the strong economy he inherited
- Trump's administration has been filled with scandals with indictments & guilty pleas (Manafort, etc...).

Its better to ignore arguments made in bad faith that are just about playing team politics, and focus on the issues that matter.

 

[JohnRoberts]

They're 'illegals' because they broke a fence, with the Guatemalan police standing right next to them? The Mexican state was also obviously incapable of controlling a crowd of 7000 people, helpless as they watched their country be "invaded" by famished refugees?

This rhetoric is ridiculous. There are football stadiums in Mexico that can seat close to 100'000 people. No-one in mexico is afraid of 7000 refugees, and if they're in Mexico, it's because they allowed them in.

Mexico has tolerated them passing through, they have far larger rule of law problems to deal with than this. BUT they were not welcomed in, they broke through a border fence. Mexico is now beginning to appreciate that if this caravan is stopped at the border, they will become Mexico's problem.

Their "apparent intent" is to apply for asylum at the border! It's been documented that's exactly what these caravans do:
Your own law states these people MUST be on American soil to apply for asylum, so they're following your legal procedure!!!

Not exactly... they can apply for hardship  refugee status at US embassies around the world. They don't even try because the vast majority do not qualify and would be refused.

A refugee is someone who has been forced to flee his or her country because of persecution, war or violence. A refugee has a well-founded fear of persecution for reasons of race, religion, nationality, political opinion or membership in a particular social group.

Your 'loopholes' also have nothing to do with these migrants – nothing right or wrong about using the law to your advantage (your own President openly brags about using 'loopholes' to his advantage).

When the law as written is insufficient to handle the latest strategy to game the system (overload the appeals court system), the law must be adjusted. Right now democrats and republicans are both willing to leave this unfixed. (Both are raising piles of campaign money from these visuals). 

What is it you always say: "Don't like it? Go out and vote!"

I recently suggested to our German friend that "he" be sure to vote... He actually just had an election where Merkel's party lost enough seats that she stepped down as party leader and decided to not run for another term. I am ok with you not voting.  :

If you don't like your immigration laws, you know what to do! 

Yes, I have been arguing for rational immigration reform forever, and voted for people promising reform, but this is a large enough issue that it requires bipartisan compromise, and cooperation across part lines is pretty scarce in the swamp these days.

Because you know what it's like to be a refugee/asylum seeker, and what a refugee should and shouldn't do?

No I have traveled to several countries and spent time in Mexico a couple times, but never central/south america. Brazil just elected a conservative leader FWIW.

You know what it's like to live in Honduras?

I know a few people from Honduras. A sales girl working at Peavey that a friend of mine dated for a couple years, and another local guy who is a great musician, and worked in Peavey QA. He couldn't play at my house parties because he was always working paying gigs on satuday nights (he would come early for the chili and beers... I would start serving the chili around noon on days of my parties for my working musician friends). He gave me a birthday present one year (hand carved wooden salad fork and spoon) that are still hanging on my wall as pieces of art decades later.

All from personal experience?

don't claim to have "that" personal experience... we are blessed to be born here and so few appreciate it.

Again, your own law states they MUST be on US soil to apply for asylum.

Embassies work...  but when refused at the border they get humanitarian treatment and opportunity to appeal here, instead of a short walk to the sidewalk.  One solution would be greyhound bus rides south. They could appeal their rejection at the embassy down there.

You're being incredibly disingenuous by claiming these people are 'breaking the rules'.

They are clearly "economic" migrants, looking for a better life. There are rules for doing that with a very long waiting list of people ahead of them.

Thanks for the Israeli rhetoric used to justify wholesale murder.

Huh.... that seems more than a little hyperbolic...  If these folks were lobbing missiles into our populated areas (to murder our civilians) we would likely respond in kind, and worse.

It's 7000 people: you do not need military or deadly force to control 7000 people, half of which are women and children. If this ends badly, it's because your country is run by a nut.

This one caravan the world is watching and if they succeed more will follow. I mentioned one person was already killed in a second caravan already trying to do the same thing. The messaging matters, sending troops to the border is not to kill anybody, just discourage them.

There is an estimated  10-12 million unauthorized immigrants already in the US. Border crossings is just one way they get in. Many overstay legal visas. We welcome legal immigration, our nation was build on legal immigration, my ancestors immigrated here, legally. We are a wealthy and generous people but that generosity has limits and people are gaming our laws and systems, to jump the line for personal benefit. This is unfair to everybody else. We have hundreds of thousands homeless right here that could use some help first.

JR 

PS: Expect about another week of political talking points on steroids... I can't (won't) fact check everything so caveat lector (reader beware).

 

[Banzai]

Huh.... that seems more than a little hyperbolic...  If these folks were lobbing missiles into our populated areas (to murder our civilians) we would likely respond in kind, and worse. This one caravan the world is watching and if they succeed more will follow. I mentioned one person was already killed in a second caravan already trying to do the same thing. The messaging matters, sending troops to the border is not to kill anybody, just discourage them.

Yes, predictably you agree with Israeli snipers shooting unarmed Palestinians – but that isn't the point. Word for word, it's the justification used by Israel to kill people at its border.

There is an estimated  10-12 million unauthorized immigrants already in the US. Border crossings is just one way they get in. Many overstay legal visas. We welcome legal immigration, our nation was build on legal immigration, my ancestors immigrated here, legally. We are a wealthy and generous people but that generosity has limits and people are gaming our laws and systems, to jump the line for personal benefit. This is unfair to everybody else. We have hundreds of thousands homeless right here that could use some help first.

Is it unfair to everyone else these "illegals" pay $7B/year to social security, and $12B/year in taxes?

How about you use some of that money to help your homeless?

Anyway, dmp is right, we're going round in circles just for the sake of arguing.

I'll leave you with a number: if this entire caravan ended up in Los Angeles, it would represent 0.175% of the total population.

 

[Banzai]

Your article deals with "immigrants" – the "legal" ones. Illegal immigration bars access to welfare.

 

[s2udio]

Illegal immigration bars access to welfare.

As it should, I really do not understand why it should be otherwise.
So I should pay my tax bill to give it away to illegal imagrants........come on WTF

 

[JohnRoberts]

So I see the same thing going on in this thread as in the national news of the USA. Trump says something inflammatory, often completely contradicting facts, and it takes over all the oxygen in the room, which then dominates the discussion. For instance Trump said this morning he would end birthright citizenship (granted in the 14th amendment in the Constitution)with an executive order. This is Ridiculous, but what is not being talked about?

Yes as I have noted before that seems to be his playbook...

I don't want to give President Trump credit he doesn't deserve but raising the 14th amendment to nation discussion will teach low information voters some history (republicans granted citizenship to children of slaves).

Once again the ongoing civics lesson...

===\

Looks like you will have to list the liberal/progressive talking points yourself...  :

JR

- The Republican tax cut to the wealthy blew a whole in the budget and Republicans are planning to cut Social Security and Medicare. Several Republicans (like McConnell) are on tape saying this.
- Trump and Republicans have repeatedly tried & voted to undo the ban on pre-existing conditions, yet they claim the opposite.  When they blatantly lie about something like this, why do people even consider voting for them?
- Trump's rhetoric has radicalized his supporters and incited violence in the USA. He congratulated a Republican congressman that physically assaulted a reported. He calls the media the enemy. He has tweeted violent imagery against his political opponents. He has called for his political opponents to be imprisoned.
- Trump's recklessness has put the country in danger (using insecure phones that hostile countries have been able to listen to)
- Trump's own taxes are something he keeps secret, reportedly because he has evaded taxes, like others (Manafort) in his administration. They are un-American and criminal.
- Trump's trade war has now endangered the strong economy he inherited
- Trump's administration has been filled with scandals with indictments & guilty pleas (Manafort, etc...).

Its better to ignore arguments made in bad faith that are just about playing team politics, and focus on the issues that matter.

 

[living sounds]

republicans granted citizenship to children of slaves

And in the 19th century there was actual cocaine in Coca Cola.

Brand names stay the same, but the product may change significantly. Todays GOP has very little overlap with the party of Lincoln's day.

 

[JohnRoberts]

And in the 19th century there was actual cocaine in Coca Cola.

coca cola was invented about 2 decades after the 14th amendment but yes in the same century...

Brand names stay the same, but the product may change significantly. Todays GOP has very little overlap with the party of Lincoln's day.

Political parties are constantly evolving and indeed they have even swapped ideology  (like the earths magnetic poles reportedly have)... I was not making a substantive argument just suggesting how it could be spun for low information voters. (Its what they do, but AFAIK they haven't yet).

JR

[edit] speaking about political drift (or hypocrisy) here is a Harry Reid speech from the 60's about the 14th amendment.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWc1qT8M1eU
All politicians evolve over decades, Harry Reid perhaps quicker than that.    [/edit]

 

[Banzai]

As it should, I really do not understand why it should be otherwise.
So I should pay my tax bill to give it away to illegal imagrants........come on WTF

Are you feeling okay??  ???

 

[JohnRoberts]

Are you feeling okay??  ???

How did you find that picture of me (get off my yard)?  :

I though I removed all my facial images from the WWW.

JR

 

[hodad]

You mean like this 2014 image?
Don't be played.  8)

JR

You know, of course, that that image does not indicate that Obama's immigration policies were not the same as Trump's?  Or are you really that ignorant? 

I'm pretty sure I debunked all that nonsense here a couple of months ago.  It took me about 20 minutes to get a fairly clear idea that all of the whataboutism the GOP apparatchiks attached to this picture was a load of crap. 

So you're either ill-informed about this subject, or you're knowingly spreading false information because it supports your beliefs. 

So which is it:  are you ignorant or a liar? 

 

[JohnRoberts]

You know, of course, that that image does not indicate that Obama's immigration policies were not the same as Trump's?  Or are you really that ignorant? 

I didn't say it did, but I posted it as a tweak because it was first circulated by a democrat to criticize President Trump. Now that was ignorant.  :

As I said then and I repeat now  "Immigration law is tangled up and I blame both parties for this. ".

FWIW President Obama  was elected with a supermajority and instead of fixing immigration, spent all that political capital on passing a democratic health care bill without a single republican vote. By the end of his administration, his political capital depleted he lacked votes to change immigration and used his "pen and his phone" (executive orders) to make temporary changes.

I'm pretty sure I debunked all that nonsense here a couple of months ago.  It took me about 20 minutes to get a fairly clear idea that all of the whataboutism the GOP apparatchiks attached to this picture was a load of crap. 

It's what both sides do, don't claim that only republicans play politics. That might be considered ignorant.

So you're either ill-informed about this subject, or you're knowingly spreading false information because it supports your beliefs. 

So which is it:  are you ignorant or a liar?

I don't care for either of those two choices... how about you? Are you ignorant or a liar?  : (I don't suspect you are either just giving you a sense for how it feels.)

I am ignorant about a lot but not this topic.  8)

I do not lie intentionally and I trust you will correct any mistakes I make inadvertently.

I have debunked a ton of crap over the years right here, but still have to repeat myself. Like Sisyphus rolling that rock up the hill.

JR

 

[DaveP]

Back on topic:

Where is the next Democratic Presidential candidate?

Only two years to go and no sign of one!

I've read that most people expect it to be Biden?

Doesn't there need to be someone for the voting public to get to know?  They can't just spring an unknown at the last minute, surely?

What a weird system you have over there.

DaveP

 

[JohnRoberts]

Back on topic:

Where is the next Democratic Presidential candidate?

Only two years to go and no sign of one!

Perhaps some of the democratic supporters here could answer better but it appears that several are jockeying for that position, not to mention that Hillary in recent interview said that she would like the job (but maybe not the campaigning for it part).

Elizabeth Warren was reportedly trying to clear skeletons out of her closet in anticipation for a 2020 run, but may have shot herself in the foot with the ancestry claims. 

The expectation is that there may be even more democratic hopefuls this time than the republican circus last time.

I've read that most people expect it to be Biden?

He is a little too old, probably kicking himself for deferring to Hillary and not running last time.

Doesn't there need to be someone for the voting public to get to know?  They can't just spring an unknown at the last minute, surely?

There are several jockeying for air time.. I don't want to insult any by not mentioning them but Cory Booker is on the list. More will come out more vocally after the mid term.

What a weird system you have over there.

DaveP

Yes, I am jealous of other country systems that don't waste so much time, money and effort on campaigning (lying), just to get elected and start campaigning all over again. We used to get pauses between elections to actually govern... now not so much.

JR