Bitcoin, crypto currency and block chain...

[JohnRoberts]

https://www.telesurtv.net/english/news/Venezuela-Petro-Sales-Exceed-1-Billion-in-Just-Two-Days-20180223-0003.html

Next they're launching a gold backed currency, won't that be fun  . Looks like the window's closing, pretty clever.

Actually on topic sort of... : The follow up with a gold backed cryptocurrency is being interpreted by the financial community as  evidence that the oil backed crypto is not selling well.  I already mentioned Maduro's self reported success on social media, but I am not aware of confirmation from China. 

In fact China has issued their own yaun based oil futures contract (backed by gold). They are probably already buying oil from Venezuela and would like to weaken the US dollar so might buy some oil with whatever they can other than dollars.

If Venezuela was credit worthy they could just issue more sovereign debt.

JR

 

[Tubetec]

come on Tands FFS ,youve been allowed the utmost in terms of freedom of expression in here  ,we all have ,I dont agree with everything John says ,doesnt mean I need to turn it into a personal attack either,sure have youre say, just stop making it personal
If I was in Johns position I'd have wiped the floor with you long ago ,not because I disagree with some of the points you make ,but the manner in which you make them . Just because I dont agree with someones point of view politcally doesnt mean I write them off in all respects .

Why are we here ? its an electronics forum first and foremost .

Im as pissed off as anyone with the way the world is going and what our elected representatives do in our so called  interests ,point it out in the cold light of day in your own words  , this endless re-tweeting and back biting of others previous comments serves no purpose at all other than to polarise opinion.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Lotta money floating around claiming ownership of Venezuelan gold and oil assets though, might be hard to untangle in the event of another coup attempt, that's why I think it's pretty clever..

Its an attempt to get around international monetary sanctions, just like russia's desire to trade a crypto ruble.

BTW this is actually on topic (crypto currency).

========

For everybody else, there is no need to pile onto Tands, he has already been warned.  Poking him will just trigger a response in kind from him,  like him poking us did.

I may need to spit this into a separate thread about venezuela to make the off topic rambling easier for me to ignore. 

As before if you have a personal problem with him take it to him using PM, do not behave like a public mob.

If he has violated rules file a moderation report. I do not read all his posts and pastes, and I will not start now.

JR

 

[JohnRoberts]

due to multiple moderation reports complaining about the behavior of Tands I am locking this thread . If he doesn't take the hint the only other recourse is to delete his account.

JR

[edit] I have unlocked the thread because the topic is actually interesting, but there is no excuse to pollute this discussion with inflammatory screed.

We still will not tolerate bad behavior  [/edit]

 

[dmp]

So I saw a report today that the first real estate transaction occurred using the blockchain in Vermont (on ethereum network).
Still looking for more news about it.

 

[JohnRoberts]

So I saw a report today that the first real estate transaction occurred using the blockchain in Vermont (on ethereum network).
Still looking for more news about it.

Reportedly a scandinavian country (sweden?) is getting serious about using blockchain for land title registry.

You could google it for more info.

JR

PS: Another good application for blockchain is providing low cost bank services for unbanked people. 

 

[Script]

Or maybe use Blockchain technology to 'watermark' intellectual property rights-protected content, such as music files. Not sure how practical though. But I read that there is Blockchain(-protected) art already, or was that just 'digital art'?

 

[JohnRoberts]

Or maybe use Blockchain technology to 'watermark' intellectual property rights-protected content, such as music files. Not sure how practical though. But I read that there is Blockchain(-protected) art already, or was that just 'digital art'?

IBM is actively pursuing exploiting blockchain technology for lots of new applications, so if it makes commercial sense it will likely happen.  It makes more sense for digital art. Attempts to watermark audio files within the audio bandwidth have been tried and failed, because the marks could be audible (CBS tried with a deep narrow notch filter).

A couple months ago I suggested to someone in the wine industry that they use blockchain to document the provenance of obscure wines (not happening yet). 

JR

 

[Script]

Just read that McDonald's will introduce the MacCoin  ;D

Sounds much like a voucher to me. Or worse: collector card system.

Which makes me wonder whether all these digital coins of late are indeed nothing but collector cards, albeit purely digital -- and vested in high volatility to make it exciting...  Many of them really smell of 'credit', 'coupon' and 'voucher' system rather than 'currency'.

Again: blockchain tech is a different thing.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Just read that McDonald's will introduce the MacCoin  ;D

Sounds much like a voucher to me. Or worse: collector card system.

Which makes me wonder whether all these digital coins of late are indeed nothing but collector cards, albeit purely digital -- and vested in high volatility to make it exciting...  Many of them really smell of 'credit', 'coupon' and 'voucher' system rather than 'currency'.

ICOs are a little scary....  Several investment firms have tried to make bitcoin (and/or other virtual currency) ETFs, Indexes, etc. but with no love from US regulators (yet).

The elephant in that room is that so much virtual currency activity is in Pac Rim countries, perhaps trying to get around currency controls. US regulators don't want to put a blue ribbon on investment vehicles if they don't have oversight of the lions share of activity.

Again: blockchain tech is a different thing.

Yes, blockchain is the real deal and will survive. If McDonalds has a real need for blockchain it is to help manage its worldwide raw ingredients supply chain (I'll bet they are already working on that).

Virtual currency is still somewhere between tulip bulbs (bubble) and digital gold (hedge against fiat currencies). But bitcoin seems pretty far from as stable as gold (that itself has been going down for years since I bought my modest position  :'().

JR

 

[Script]

Yes, it seems that blockchain has the potential to take a lot of the 'paper' out of paperwork.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Yes, it seems that blockchain has the potential to take a lot of the 'paper' out of paperwork.

and cost from trying to document chains of custody which is applicable to many activities.

JR

 

[JohnRoberts]

It looks like pot stocks have become the new bitcoin for fast (stupid) money....  I am reluctant to check how much the one i sold has gone up... I am often early with trades.

JR

[edit- just checked and the pot stock I sold just a few weeks ago (ACBFF)  is up another 30% since I sold it. :  Such is life, better to be early than late on a trade, and it's never wrong to lock in a profit.  Tilray seems to be the posterboy for bubblicious pot stock price moves, but don't try to short it, there is almost no float. ]

 

[dmp]

I recently read an analogy of these fad investments as being treated like a video game... interesting analogy
Tilray now has a market cap worth more than major companies with profits.

I thought a lot of crypto technology, which is why I bought in a few years ago. I'm not as sold on the prospects of weed technology.

 

[JohnRoberts]

I recently read an analogy of these fad investments as being treated like a video game... interesting analogy
Tilray now has a market cap worth more than major companies with profits.

I thought a lot of crypto technology, which is why I bought in a few years ago. I'm not as sold on the prospects of weed technology.

Cannabis extracts have real medical applications, and the post prohibition consumer market could be substantial, BUT the cost to manufacture will be dirt cheap so profits may be lower than projected after it becomes legal.

I made my quick pop and I am out (more lucky than smart)... early but happy.  8)

JR 

PS: I still wouldn't own bitcoin with all your money, but I like blockchain, but it is already spreading in fintech.

 

[JohnRoberts]

I am finally warming up to the possibility of holding a modest position of bitcoin to supplant my JIC small position in gold. (Next year could be good time to be long Bitcoin, but I am not looking for a trade, more long term JIC alternate asset class).

I trust the market enough to hold a gold equivalent ETF (GLD) but don't think a similar bitcoin vehicle exists (I read that the Winklevoss twins are working on one but SEC has been reluctant to approve any yet). I see bitcoin ETNs but they have carrying charges, etc.

I understand you can own a bitcoin and use a paper document holding the blockchain data... I am still uneasy about how secure this would be (the purchase transaction more than holding paper bitcoin). I do not trust any of my several computers to be secure or still working years from now, or the bitcoin exchanges that seem to be popular hacking targets.

Maybe I should just start making some bitcoin with my sundry computers doing nothing (mostly joking).  ;D ;D

I expect there are forum members here with actual hands on experience to possibly share..

JR

 

[dmp]

I am finally warming up to the possibility of holding a modest position of bitcoin to supplant my JIC small position in gold. (Next year could be good time to be long Bitcoin, but I am not looking for a trade, more long term JIC alternate asset class).

I trust the market enough to hold a gold equivalent ETF (GLD) but don't think a similar bitcoin vehicle exists (I read that the Winklevoss twins are working on one but SEC has been reluctant to approve any yet). I see bitcoin ETNs but they have carrying charges, etc.

Not that I know of. There are futures but that is not the same thing.

I understand you can own a bitcoin and use a paper document holding the blockchain data...

You can have a paper document (wallet) that has your private key. The private key is how you sign transactions when submitted. If the signature is valid (cryptography stuff) the transaction works and is printed in the next block of the blockchain.  Transactions are not reversible. So if someone got your private key they could send your bitcoin to another address and your bitcoin would be gone. I've never done a paper wallet.  And sending the bitcoin TO your paper wallet is easier than sending the bitcoin back out of your paper wallet. And you might mess up the private key as it is a long string of numbers and letters. Mistake a 0 for a O? whoops.  But it is an option. Just be very careful when you generate the wallet to be on a secure computer.

However you plan to keep it, the first step is to buy some  - the safest way is on an exchange.  I would not recommend buying from someone through craigslist or the internet due to the possibility for fraud.  Coinbase is a good exchange for USA. Make an account, link your bank account, do some verification stuff, then make a purchase.

They have a cold storage option if you want to leave your bitcoin on the exchange but most people would not do that with a significant amount. There is a risk that the exchange gets hacked (which has happened to several exchanges).  There is also a risk that someone will take over your account with social engineered hacking.  I.e. they try to do a password reset for your account to take it over then send your bitcoin somewhere else.

So if you are tach savy enough,  move the bitcoin to a personal wallet. (software, hardware, or paper)
 
You could use a Ledger Nano S hardware wallet (costs about $60 and looks like a USB stick). It connects to your computer, you send the bitcoin to the address, then the hardware wallet holds your personal keys.  Learning how to setup and use it will take a little effort, but it is pretty user friendly.  Very secure. You manually enter a pin number on the ledger to access your wallet.
You also create a paper seed when you set up the wallet on the ledger nano (write out a string of words that can be used to recreate your wallet). You never share that, take a picture of it, or put it on the internet in anyway. Write it out on two pieces of paper and put it in two physical locations (i.e. in case your house burns down there is a copy somewhere else). That paper seed can recreate your wallet if you ever lose the ledger nano.  So basically the ledger securely sets up a paper wallet for you with a seed (string of words) instead of a private key,  and makes accessing your wallet safe with the hardware stick.

Obviously since it costs $60, you need to be able to justify the purchase with enough bitcoin.

I am still uneasy about how secure this would be (the purchase transaction more than holding paper bitcoin).

If you do it through a exchange like Coinbase the purchase will be secure. But the bitcoin they credit to your account is not an individual transaction on the blockchain until you send it out to a personal wallet (i.e. they own a bunch of bitcoin and you 'own' some).

I do not trust any of my several computers to be secure or still working years from now, or the bitcoin exchanges that seem to be popular hacking targets.

You never know what is going to happen and like all investments there is risk. The price may go up, it may go down. But the risk of fraud, loss, or even the whole bitcoin network failing is not impossible. 
Holding bitcoin on a single computer or harddrive is a bad idea. You want security and redundancy.

There are a lot of stories of people who had bitcoin on a old harddrive that they threw away, etc.. One guy had like $50 million or something on a hard drive and he is trying to buy the whole landfill from the government so he can search it for his old harddrive.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Not that I know of. There are futures but that is not the same thing.

Yes, but trading futures is a good thing for price discovery/stability

You can have a paper document (wallet) that has your private key. The private key is how you sign transactions when submitted. If the signature is valid (cryptography stuff) the transaction works and is printed in the next block of the blockchain.  Transactions are not reversible. So if someone got your private key they could send your bitcoin to another address and your bitcoin would be gone. I've never done a paper wallet.  And sending the bitcoin TO your paper wallet is easier than sending the bitcoin back out of your paper wallet. And you might mess up the private key as it is a long string of numbers and letters. Mistake a 0 for a O? whoops.  But it is an option. Just be very careful when you generate the wallet to be on a secure computer.

I am trying to avoid dependence on old computers.

However you plan to keep it, the first step is to buy some  - the safest way is on an exchange.  I would not recommend buying from someone through craigslist or the internet due to the possibility for fraud.  Coinbase is a good exchange for USA. Make an account, link your bank account, do some verification stuff, then make a purchase.

yes coinbase is well established and made good on small hacks in the past (if you believe WWW gossip).

They have a cold storage option if you want to leave your bitcoin on the exchange but most people would not do that with a significant amount. There is a risk that the exchange gets hacked (which has happened to several exchanges).  There is also a risk that someone will take over your account with social engineered hacking.  I.e. they try to do a password reset for your account to take it over then send your bitcoin somewhere else.

So if you are tach savy enough,  move the bitcoin to a personal wallet. (software, hardware, or paper)
 

my inclination.. perhaps USB drive and paper backup JIC.  I doubt USB sticks work forever too, but should outlast me. 

You could use a Ledger Nano S hardware wallet (costs about $60 and looks like a USB stick). It connects to your computer, you send the bitcoin to the address, then the hardware wallet holds your personal keys.  Learning how to setup and use it will take a little effort, but it is pretty user friendly.  Very secure. You manually enter a pin number on the ledger to access your wallet.
You also create a paper seed when you set up the wallet on the ledger nano (write out a string of words that can be used to recreate your wallet). You never share that, take a picture of it, or put it on the internet in anyway. Write it out on two pieces of paper and put it in two physical locations (i.e. in case your house burns down there is a copy somewhere else). That paper seed can recreate your wallet if you ever lose the ledger nano.  So basically the ledger securely sets up a paper wallet for you with a seed (string of words) instead of a private key,  and makes accessing your wallet safe with the hardware stick.

Obviously since it costs $60, you need to be able to justify the purchase with enough bitcoin.
If you do it through a exchange like Coinbase the purchase will be secure. But the bitcoin they credit to your account is not an individual transaction on the blockchain until you send it out to a personal wallet (i.e. they own a bunch of bitcoin and you 'own' some).

I am thinking around maybe 1 bitcoin JIC money for after the revolution.  :

You never know what is going to happen and like all investments there is risk. The price may go up, it may go down. But the risk of fraud, loss, or even the whole bitcoin network failing is not impossible. 

I trust bitcoin more than the alphabet soup of wannabe crypto coins... Now even Facebook it looking into blockchain (dollar denominated or basket of currencies) but mainly to avoid credit card charges when supporting transactions on their website, if that works amazon could be next.

I expect some major wall street bank to get into the exchange business with serious security, not sure it will happen in my timeframe (6 months to 1 year).

Holding bitcoin on a single computer or harddrive is a bad idea. You want security and redundancy.

But multiple computer copies increases exposure for hacking... while most of my computers can't even reach the internet unless I specifically connect them. The hackers are pretty aggressive and keep evolving.

There are a lot of stories of people who had bitcoin on a old harddrive that they threw away, etc.. One guy had like $50 million or something on a hard drive and he is trying to buy the whole landfill from the government so he can search it for his old harddrive.

Yup... I often make a point of trashing my hard drive when I discard old computers, to make it much harder to recover my old data... I am not likely to discard things of that much value... haven't yet, while bitcoin is engineered to appreciate significantly over time (at least that is the plan).

JR

 

[Kingston]

Reconsider your choices. Instead do not be involved with a casino.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Reconsider your choices. Instead do not be involved with a casino.

Hey that's my line.... 

I am still skeptical but the technical analysis looks promising in the near term (years)...

Do not consider this investing advice, I'm just looking for safe ways to buy a small position...

JR