Brexit

[Script]

Good point. What did economic experts say back then? Were they against joining?

 

[JohnRoberts]

Several of the papers have accused Remainers of  Sore Loser Syndrome.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure there is that too.

From a distance the Brexit vote looks a little like the dog chasing a car, who catches it and then doesn't know what to do with it.  ;D

The worst thing, however, is if fears, both imaginary and real, of people are not taken seriously. I think that politicians all across the world have been way too unconsiderate of this for way too long, contributing to some of the problems we see today.

Opinions vary, IMO politicians take too many less than concrete problems as real and feed the voters anxiety to marshall opinion and power.

Moreover, when//as soon as//should people start to feel negative effects in their wallets (we all know that Brexit is not a reality yet, but it seems that everybody is getting prepared), then any discussion quickly reaches an end -- believe me. It's in the pocket where people (of all societal strata) feel it and where they are most sensitive (e.g., mortgage, kids' education, health care, elderly care etc).

Do we know this decision is a loser for UK residents? It seems they voted their self interest. The future is yet to be written and the EU would be unwise to not trade with the UK, and the UK could increase competitive advantage.

Not everybody can wait for years for things in politics to change (both before and after the referendum). As I said, I don't think that to emigrate is an easy decision. But then again, once someone makes up their mind, it's not that difficult after all.

These days people are a little too willing to emigrate, but less willing to assimilate into new cultures.

Let's assume all those 600,000 people really gonna leave the UK. What then? I'd say, so what. It's nothing in comparison to the exodus happening in Greece right now. It's a minor loss, but a loss nonetheless. Let's hope for Britain that the new government knows how to approach those people and convince them change their minds.

It's a bit early to count hypothetical results of a change not even fully defined.

JR

 

[thermionic]

Several of the papers have accused Remainers of  Sore Loser Syndrome. This video made me laugh:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Se8rx-MxCxk

Cheers

IAn

Keen students of history will have noted that exactly the same happened to those who resented the results of the German elections in the 1930s... Like I quoted earlier, those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat its mistakes.

Crying 'bad loser' is typical behaviour of the bully. And our press knows all about bullying.

Interestingly enough, one of the chief Brexit architects, The Daily Mail, actually published articles praising the new German chancellor in the 1930s... Plus ca change...

 

[thermionic]

Just to give the members from other countries an idea of how poisonous the Daily Mail is, there was an experiment where propaganda from a certain fascist party was posted in its comments section. However, the word 'Jew' was replaced with 'migrant'. As you will see, the comments got resounding praise: http://indy100.independent.co.uk/article/what-happens-when-you-comment-on-daily-mail-articles-with-actual-nazi-propaganda--Zy4ccsnBEx

This is what The Mail represents today. Brexit is truly its greatest victory.

 

[sahib]

....most favoured countries of destination are Spain.....

Surely it is a joke.

Did the person know the unemployment rate in Spain? Did he/she know that so many highly skilled Spaniards moved to UK and ended up doing low end jobs. One of my friends is a  manager in a restaurant here in Glasgow, he has two Spanish waitresses who are medical graduates.

... France.....

Note one, two or three but so many of my friends' view who lived and still live in France  is that it is very difficult to get a job in France for a foreign person even if he/she speaks fluent French. But I would like to hear my French friends' view here on this.

.... It might also lead to a decrease in both youth and long-term unemployment if people are willing and able to (re-)educate. And, last but not least, there will be more free houses on the market... all grand.

Probably not. The issue is deeper than that. Youth and long term unemployment also have to be looked at from a cultural point of view.  I helped set up a vocational course here and taught for almost three years. Plus I have also been an employer for over 20 years. So I have a tiny bit of practical experience of this.

Unfortunately the young generation is generally interested in jobs that involve sitting in front of a computer, drinking cups of coffee, having chats and getting paid big bucks. Starting as a tea boy and learning a trade is not in their DNA in general. The advent of the internet made it gazillion times worse. So there is quite a bit of  inspiring to do. Or kicking a*s.

Long term unemployment has two sides.

One side is "traditionally" unemployed. Strangely enough there was a program about this on the radio the other day. The speaker referred to them as " skimmers of the system".  The guy's grand father did not work, father did not work and he is not going to be the one working in the family. These are the types that generally do low level talking about "the immigration". Don't bother kicking a*s. It won't bring result.

The other side is skilled/highly skilled but not enough work going around for them. I have a friend who is a brilliant copy writer. Fluent in two languages. Lost his job in advertising during the economic downturn and can not get back into the system. Doing part time kitchen porter jobs. Incidentally, this is also one of the points that I was trying to make when I was talking about immigration in one of my earlier posts. Generally the new immigrant takes this low end job and this guy moves up in the ladder. When that does not happen or the immigrant takes his job at half the pay as he/she is also living below the bread line, then you have a social problem. 

The key here is not to blame the immigrant but to plan a system that is fair to all. But it seems there is an almost "fundamentalist" response from some who are of the view that immigration is exempt from such planning.

 

[sahib]

These days people are a little too willing to emigrate, but less willing to assimilate into new cultures.

John, I know you did not mean it that way but in general assimilation can have a forceful element. Integration is more appropriate.

 

[abbey road d enfer]

... France.....

Note one, two or three but so many of my friends' view who lived and still live in France  is that it is very difficult to get a job in France for a foreign person even if he/she speaks fluent French. But I would like to hear my French friends' view here on this. 

It's difficult to get a job in France, period. I would say being an English-speaking person is a bonus in many positions.
Indeed there are some employers who are reluctant to hiring foreigners, particularly when the employees are in contact with the public, in areas where the opinions of Ms. Le Pen are widely spread.
Inversely, many workers in construction are foreigners (no Gaul in their right mind would take thesedirty and exhausting  jobs ).
I would say that in any skilled job, there is no discrimination against nationality.
However, there are places in the country where doctors had to be "imported" - mainly from eastern countries - and have been met with suspicion, even rejection, from the population.
Clearly, the picture is not the same if you see it from a rural or urban POV.

 

[DaveP]

I noticed lots of comments about newspapers on this thread.

I have always hated the bias on both left and right leaning papers and so I have never bought them except for plane flights.

I read that young people have stopped buying them altogether as they get their news from social media.

This means that as the older readers die off, that newspapers will become less and less viable, a very positive thing IMHO.

So far, I have not noticed any bias in the free internet news feeds France24, BBC, Sky, Reuters. 

DaveP

 

[ruffrecords]

I noticed lots of comments about newspapers on this thread.

I have always hated the bias on both left and right leaning papers and so I have never bought them except for plane flights.

I read that young people have stopped buying them altogether as they get their news from social media.

And you really think social media is not biased????

Cheers

Ian

 

[ruffrecords]

Good point. What did economic experts say back then? Were they against joining?

You have to remember that back then there were only three TV channels, BBC1, BBC2 and ITV and they only had the news twice a day. The only national radio was BBC - the independent radio stations were only just beginning  - LBC was the first in 1973 and they were all very local.  Most of the pirate radio stations, apart from Caroline, had been closed down by the government. Young people listened to BBC Radio 1 but its news, as now, was a short two minute slot on the hour. There was no internet. The local pub and your workplace were the social media. There were no PCs, mobile phones, laptops, tablets and a lot of people still had black and white TV sets. There were no credit cards or debit cards but there was hire purchase (the never never). Everybody read a newspaper.

We joined the Common Market without a referendum. It was two years later in June 1975 that the referendum was held. I had been married for two years at that time and was working at Neve in Sales Engineering designing consoles for use all over the world. You also have to remember that prior to the referendum was the three day week caused by the miners strike which also led to regular power cuts. At that time the UK was known as the sick man of Europe because of the number of days lost through industrial action strikes. In 1973, the year I got married, we had the oil crisis with petrol rationing. Against that background staying in or laving Europe was not a really big deal.

To be honest I have no recollection of there being any  campaign before the 1975 referendum or of any economic 'experts' .  As I recall there was more outcry in 1971 about decimalisation and how it would allow unscrupulous retailers to increase prices (retail price maintenance had been abandoned in 1965). I remember this because I was at Nottingham University at the time and I joined the campus radio group. We had a half hour programme on BBC Radio Nottingham every week. I did  Vox Pop in the town centre asking people their opinions on decimalisation.

There was certainly far less information available in those days. Whether we were any less informed is moot.

Cheers

Ian

 

[s2udio]

I noticed lots of comments about newspapers on this thread.

I have always hated the bias on both left and right leaning papers and so I have never bought them except for plane flights.

I read that young people have stopped buying them altogether as they get their news from social media.

And you really think social media is not biased????

Cheers

Ian

People who think "any" main media stream is not biased must be walking around with blinkers on.
Do your own reasearch, dont belive everything they tell you !

 

[sahib]

I noticed lots of comments about newspapers on this thread.

I have always hated the bias on both left and right leaning papers and so I have never bought them except for plane flights.

I read that young people have stopped buying them altogether as they get their news from social media.

This means that as the older readers die off, that newspapers will become less and less viable, a very positive thing IMHO.

So far, I have not noticed any bias in the free internet news feeds France24, BBC, Sky, Reuters. 

DaveP

I'll join Ian  and give you a doing Dave  ;D.

I also do not think why reading biased views should be a problem. If you don't read you don't know that it is biased.

Younger people choosing social media to news papers,  and it certainly shows.

On the other hand that is a reality. Social media  has already taken over. But do we realise how much junk one has to sift through to  get  to a  grain with a nutritious value on line?

I still maintain that nothing replaces a good news paper. It will be a pity when they are all gone. New generations will never know any better.

 

[JohnRoberts]

I am one of those dinosaurs who still read a newspaper cover to cover every day.

In the US the press is protected as their ultimate function is to keep our government honest.  Ive told this story before but back in the '80s for one full year I read three daily newspapers, WSJ, NYT, and Washington Post(?). That way I was able to perceive the biases of all three. SInce then I just read the WSJ and apply windage for their conservative bias, while I have shifted right over the decades ( a natural progression as life teaches us).

In the US a lot of kids (and adults) get their news from late night comedic monologues, and faux news shows. Man on the street interviews reveal how uninformed so many people are.  To add to this misinformation many get their history from fictionalized movie versions of true events. Hollywood has a definite bias that is reflected in most movies. 

I was hopeful that the pervasive use of smart phone cameras, and easy dissemination of  information over the internet would take up the task of the news services to keep politicians and government honest. That hasn't quite happened yet as far as I can see, but i remain optimistic.  It should be impossible for modern politicians to make different promises to different groups, but political campaigns are more sophisticated about utilizing and managing social media.

JR

 

[DaveP]

I'll join Ian  and give you a doing Dave  ;D.

I also do not think why reading biased views should be a problem. If you don't read you don't know that it is biased.

Younger people choosing social media to news papers,  and it certainly shows.

I see I should have been a bit more specific.

What I meant was that social media was taking over from newspapers in the young, in the way that they interact with each other and share opinions, rather than simply following a newspapers line.  Facebook has no political bias, you can choose your friends on that medium. Twitter has the ability to generate very fast reactions but again you can choose who you follow.

I don't see how powerful newspaper owners can take any pleasure in seeing their influence waning.  Show me what I have missed here.

DaveP

 

[ruffrecords]

I'll join Ian  and give you a doing Dave  ;D.

I also do not think why reading biased views should be a problem. If you don't read you don't know that it is biased.

Younger people choosing social media to news papers,  and it certainly shows.

I see I should have been a bit more specific.

What I meant was that social media was taking over from newspapers in the young, in the way that they interact with each other and share opinions, rather than simply following a newspapers line.  Facebook has no political bias, you can choose your friends on that medium. Twitter has the ability to generate very fast reactions but again you can choose who you follow.

I don't see how powerful newspaper owners can take any pleasure in seeing their influence waning.  Show me what I have missed here.

DaveP

Social media provide a forum for discussion but little raw data. Where does the info that people discuss on social media come from?

Cheers

Ian

 

[DaveP]

Social media provide a forum for discussion but little raw data. Where does the info that people discuss on social media come from?

It comes from headlines, radio, TV news and newsfeeds, not so easy to bias as a newspaper.

The discussion usually comes to a consensus, most people have an innate sense of right and wrong even if the facts are distorted.

The same is true for newspapers, but the distortion is unashamedly blatant.

DaveP

 

[ruffrecords]

Social media provide a forum for discussion but little raw data. Where does the info that people discuss on social media come from?

It comes from headlines, radio, TV news and newsfeeds, not so easy to bias as a newspaper.
DaveP

But biased nonetheless.

Cheers

Ian

 

[Script]

But biased nonetheless.

Hardly anything around in this world (especially news, politics, history, economics, philosophy etc) that is not biased one way or the other.

On a different note: Now that a few months have passed, how does Brexit feel today? Where or how does it show in your daily life? Hope everybody takes it as an 'unbiased' question.

 

[ruffrecords]

Hardly anything around in this world (especially news, politics, history, economics, philosophy etc) that is not biased one way or the other.

On a different note: Now that a few months have passed, how does Brexit feel today? Where or how does it show in your daily life? Hope everybody takes it as an 'unbiased' question.

Teresa May has finally got her feet under the table and begun to address the issues. Looks like official notice will be given by the end of March next year. Looks like it really will happen. The usual big Euro guns have come out saying they will punish the UK as a lesson to others thinking the same thing. That's one club I definitely do not want to belong to.

Cheers

Ian

 

[JohnRoberts]

Friday morning in Asian markets the pound dipped to $1.18 before recovering some or most of the dip. Most likely computer algorithms in a thinly traded market. If anything this could be predictive of direction.

Brexit is moving on a schedule somewhat predicted by the rules. Germany and France need to be strict with the UK to preserve the rest of the union, and discourage others from leaving with no cost or penalty.

I wonder how much of this (Brexit) is fueled by the EU influx of ME migrants? The mass of migrants camped on the other side of the channel trying to get to the UK suggests it is a desirable destination. 

JR

PS: Some recently leaked Hillary Clinton comments from a wall street speech sounds like lyrics from a John Lennon song (Imagine).  A world without borders is an idea whose time has not arrived yet. We have to get our own houses in order first, and perhaps make the rest of the world a better safer place to live, not a place to escape from. All these people trying to get to the UK aren't going for the fish and chips, or good indian food.