Brexit

[Phrazemaster]

...

But honestly, how can someone disenfranchised vote for a billionaire/city boy who has never experienced what it's like to be poor, on the dole, or living day to day without health insurance? ...

Do you actually have Obama-(doesn't)-care? Do you know how incredibly expensive it is, and how bad it is? For a lot of individuals and families, things got a helluva lot worse financially when they pushed through this so-called god-send legislation. I heard Trump say he wants to improve the healthcare; I heard nothing from Hillary about it.

I agree that someone with a background like Trump's makes it seem very unlikely that he could understand the "common man." But. Isn't that also discrimination? He wants to improve healthcare. That's a good thing, for me personally and for a lot of others who got ambushed by this supposedly wonderful new thing. Yes some have benefitted, but it's a huge failure for the most part.

For many people such as myself "living day to day without healthcare" is no different now - because the monthly premiums and the deductibles are so high that effectively I have NO healthcare unless a catastrophe hits. So basically I have absolutely no coverage but I get a huge extra monthly expense, for NO BENEFIT to me. Now, that's progress!!!

 

[abbey road d enfer]

For many people such as myself "living day to day without healthcare" is no different now - because the monthly premiums and the deductibles are so high that effectively I have NO healthcare unless a catastrophe hits. So basically I have absolutely no coverage but I get a huge extra monthly expense, for NO BENEFIT to me. Now, that's progress!!!

Can you explain that for us non-US citizens? Do you mean you pay a monthly "contribution" and that you get nothing in compensation, but could if circumstances allowed? The way you express it, it looks to me like an insurance...

 

[Banzai]

Can you explain that for us non-US citizens? Do you mean you pay a monthly "contribution" and that you get nothing in compensation, but could if circumstances allowed? The way you express it, it looks to me like an insurance...

Exactly...

 

[Banzai]

Do you actually have Obama-(doesn't)-care? Do you know how incredibly expensive it is, and how bad it is? For a lot of individuals and families, things got a helluva lot worse financially when they pushed through this so-called god-send legislation. I heard Trump say he wants to improve the healthcare; I heard nothing from Hillary about it.

I agree that someone with a background like Trump's makes it seem very unlikely that he could understand the "common man." But. Isn't that also discrimination? He wants to improve healthcare. That's a good thing, for me personally and for a lot of others who got ambushed by this supposedly wonderful new thing. Yes some have benefitted, but it's a huge failure for the most part.

For many people such as myself "living day to day without healthcare" is no different now - because the monthly premiums and the deductibles are so high that effectively I have NO healthcare unless a catastrophe hits. So basically I have absolutely no coverage but I get a huge extra monthly expense, for NO BENEFIT to me. Now, that's progress!!!

You're not going to get any sympathy from me. My government forces me to have healthcare insurance, same as everyone else in every other European country. It isn't there for when I get the flu or a sore back. It's there for when I need a €50'000 operation. It's there, so I don't get financially ruined for life because something unexpected happened.

Putting aside the millions with pre-existing conditions (your healthcare system was and still is a disgrace for a developed country), how about asking the real questions instead. As in, why is your insurance this expensive, and why is it so bad? Why is your healthcare and medication the most expensive in the developed world, whilst simultaneously being ranked the worst in terms of quality of care? What do big pharma and insurance companies get in return for being the largest lobbies? Is that why your government does nothing to control prices, in complete contrast to every other country? It didn't start with Obamacare. You've been getting fleeced for decades:

http://www.thebubblebubble.com/healthcare-bubble/

http://www.dailyinfographic.com/why-americas-healthcare-sucks-infographic

 

[ruffrecords]

You're not going to get any sympathy from me. My government forces me to have healthcare insurance, same as everyone else in every other European country.

In the UK, healthcare is free at all levels.

Cheers

Ian

 

[abbey road d enfer]

In the UK, healthcare is free at all levels.

Cheers

Ian

Is it really? You don't have WHT?

 

[JohnRoberts]

In the UK, healthcare is free at all levels.

Cheers

Ian

Nothing in life is free, but it is socialized (paid for by taxpayers).

For years I have looked at the different systems that other western countries use, all have strengths and weaknesses. We are clearly heading in that direction and have already seen the results from our first team who didn't pay much attention to the math, we'll see what the other team comes up with.

Speaking of the "math" two long term care insurance companies are now going through bankruptcy because when they started up back in the '90s their actuaries underestimated the cost of the latter years care. They wrote a bunch of policies at what seemed like a fair price but later realized they were losing money. The insurance regulators wouldn't let them raise their rates high enough to be sustainable, and the predicted result is bankruptcy and liquidation. 

When the government becomes the bank, they do not literally run out of money. They can always print more. But we need to manage a lot of the cost out of our existing healthcare system.  This will be difficult and take some time. Nobody is opposed to the what, just the how.

JR

 

[ruffrecords]

Nothing in life is free, but it is socialized (paid for by taxpayers).
JR

All generalisations are false.

Cheers

Ian

 

[Script]

Speaking of the "math" two long term care insurance companies are now going through bankruptcy because when they started up back in the '90s their actuaries underestimated the cost of the latter years care.

"Miscalculated"? Or too "enthusiastic" back then?

Really just an aside, but private 'health insurance' companies are often exempt from capital gains tax. Same in the US?

Japan has public health insurance. It's the same for everyone, and monthly payments are calculated based on taxable income. In addition, each time you visit a doctor or buy medication in a pharmacy, you have to cover 30% of the total bill by yourself (most people opt for generic medication). Overall, this doesn't stop people from seeking consultation (when needed), but it puts a lot of strain on low-incomers. Below-poverty line incomers pay an equivalent of US$30 per month. There's a limit on the maximum amount that a patient has to pay (i.e., it's capped -- let's say in case of chemotherapy or the like). And if accumulated payments per year exceed a certain threshold, the amount is in part deductible from next year's taxable income. There sure are private insurance companies for covering the patient's 30%, but those are expensive cos private (and most often it's bulk insurance for permanent employees, but not despatchees). Finally, every two or three years, every citizen gets a huge letter with a bunch of coupons for free, age-group related all-round health checkups. On the other hand, the public health care system in Japan constantly produces red. It needs reform dearly.

 

[JohnRoberts]

All generalisations are false.

Cheers

Ian

Is that a generalization ?    ;D ;D ;D

JR

 

[JohnRoberts]

"Miscalculated"? Or too "enthusiastic" back then?

I would say they underestimated the huge costs associated with late life health care. This is not a problem unique to the US and I have watched as other national health systems struggle with this. An all too common response is free but delayed access to limited services.

There were reports of military deaths while waiting associated with "delayed" appointments in the military health care system, a bad omen for larger government involvement with public healthcare.

Really just an aside, but private 'health insurance' companies are often exempt from capital gains tax. Same in the US?

AFAIK no... taxed like any other business, but they too are under some extra strain from the low interest rate environment. They are supposed to invest their excess dividends to grow a large enough pot to pay out later claims (the stock market has been fueled by asset inflation for several years, but debt yields are puny.). That seems like another stress on them. Giving them a free ride on capital gains  seems virtuous, but are they a public utility or a private company?  Nothing about this is simple and easy. 

Japan has public health insurance. It's the same for everyone, and monthly payments are calculated based on taxable income. In addition, each time you visit a doctor or buy medication in a pharmacy, you have to cover 30% of the total bill by yourself (most people opt for generic medication). Overall, this doesn't stop people from seeking consultation (when needed), but it puts a lot of strain on low-incomers. Below-poverty line incomers pay an equivalent of US$30 per month. There's a limit on the maximum amount that a patient has to pay (i.e., it's capped -- let's say in case of chemotherapy or the like). And if accumulated payments per year exceed a certain threshold, the amount is in part deductible from next year's taxable income. There sure are private insurance companies for covering the patient's 30%, but those are expensive cos private (and most often it's bulk insurance for permanent employees, but not despatchees). Finally, every two or three years, every citizen gets a huge letter with a bunch of coupons for free, age-group related all-round health checkups. On the other hand, the public health care system in Japan constantly produces red. It needs reform dearly.

This is not that unusual. Germany has (when last I looked into this?) private health insurance but low wage earners who can't afford it get government assistance to help pay for the private insurance. There are good free market aspects to this, but I can imagine that tail wagging the dog if the government assistance gets large enough..

There is far too much about this topic to cover in a brief off-topic post

Back to your already scheduled arguments.

JR

 

[ruffrecords]

Is that a generalization ?    ;D ;D ;D

JR

Its an enigma.

Cheers

Ian

 

[Phrazemaster]

You're not going to get any sympathy from me. My government forces me to have healthcare insurance, same as everyone else in every other European country. It isn't there for when I get the flu or a sore back. It's there for when I need a €50'000 operation. It's there, so I don't get financially ruined for life because something unexpected happened.

Putting aside the millions with pre-existing conditions (your healthcare system was and still is a disgrace for a developed country), how about asking the real questions instead. As in, why is your insurance this expensive, and why is it so bad? Why is your healthcare and medication the most expensive in the developed world, whilst simultaneously being ranked the worst in terms of quality of care? What do big pharma and insurance companies get in return for being the largest lobbies? Is that why your government does nothing to control prices, in complete contrast to every other country? It didn't start with Obamacare. You've been getting fleeced for decades:

http://www.thebubblebubble.com/healthcare-bubble/

http://www.dailyinfographic.com/why-americas-healthcare-sucks-infographic

The US healthcare system IS bad, for all the many correct reasons you mentioned. There's no reason we should get the worst care in the world for the highest prices. Except for corruption and greed.

I don't agree that I should be forced to pay such high prices for no care. It's NOT billed as emergency coverage as you stated. Emergency coverage should be much lower.

 

[Phrazemaster]

All generalisations are false.

Cheers

Ian

Haha!

 

[Banzai]

The US healthcare system IS bad, for all the many correct reasons you mentioned. There's no reason we should get the worst care in the world for the highest prices. Except for corruption and greed.

I don't agree that I should be forced to pay such high prices for no care. It's NOT billed as emergency coverage as you stated. Emergency coverage should be much lower.

I didn't state it's emergency coverage. I have a full coverage health insurance that doesn't kick in until I've already spent €3'000/yr, and after that I still pay 20% myself. Since I luckily never spend €3'000/yr, I never use my insurance. And it will never get used, unless something unexpected and/or very expensive happens. Point being, it's not supposed to be doing anything for me, and I'm happy I never use it.

For the rest, here's an interesting healthcare outline of both candidates, pre-election: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/11/01/the-future-of-health-care-according-to-clinton-or-trump/

 

[Phrazemaster]

You said:

You're not going to get any sympathy from me. My government forces me to have healthcare insurance, same as everyone else in every other European country. It isn't there for when I get the flu or a sore back. It's there for when I need a €50'000 operation. It's there, so I don't get financially ruined for life because something unexpected happened.

To me, an unexpected hugely expensive operation IS emergency coverage. How do you define emergency?

But rather than quibble semantics, we agree it's a poor system. You've just been getting screwed longer than I have hence your comment "you're not getting sympathy for me" I suppose.

In any case it's an exorbitant jump for someone like me who is healthy and spends a lot of money already on health foods and supplements to suddenly have a huge extra bill each and every month when prior to that I didn't. For no benefit unless I have an emergency.

Sorry you think that's fair but it isn't, just because you're in a poor system too. I get no benefit unless I have a  terrible  emergency. That is NOT how it was billed to us Americans. It's an unbelievably sh**ty system and expensive as hell and I have every right to be angry about it.

 

[ruffrecords]

In any case it's an exorbitant jump for someone like me who is healthy and spends a lot of money already on health foods and supplements to suddenly have a huge extra bill each and every month when prior to that I didn't. For no benefit unless I have an emergency.

But isn't that just the same as any insurance?? Car insurance,  home insurance?

Cheers

Ian

 

[Phrazemaster]

But isn't that just the same as any insurance?? Car insurance,  home insurance?

Cheers

Ian

Yes - but I wasn't paying for insurance. I pay doctors and dentists and optometrists only when I need them, which is rarely. The point is we Americans are now forced to buy something that is terrible. An expense that wasn't there before for many, and for no benefit for many. Having exorbitant deductibles ensures that we still have to pay for most things anyway. It's a sick joke..

For those that had insurance, premiums went up a lot, and quality went way down. Many doctors and hospitals refuse to accept it. Many people lost their doctors and had to change hospitals. Many insurance companies are going bankrupt too. It's really bad. And they sic the tax collectors (IRS) on you if you don't participate. It's structured in such a way that people making less income get a subsidy on their premiums and can get better insurance than those making a little more. Men's insurance policies have coverage for having a baby.

Why should a basic necessity like healthcare be so expensive it bankrupts a person to begin with? We shouldn't need insurance for basic healthcare needs. It should be affordable to begin with. It's a service like any other. Except they have your life in their hands so they jack up the price.

I guess those who have paid a lot for insurance think it's just normal. But nobody should be forced to buy something they don't want. It's not freedom. And what you get in return is incredibly poor.

 

[abbey road d enfer]

huge extra bill each and every month when prior to that I didn't. For no benefit unless I have an emergency.

That's precisely the case with my house insurance; I've paid it for about 40 years and never had to claim any damage. But I know people who have had their house damaged by draught, who had huge bills paid by the insurance company, using the money collected from others.
That is called solidarity, one of the few traits that distinct humans from amoebea.
Now one can question the huge amounts of money that stay in the pockets of the insurance companies.
Prez Obama had to set up his healthcare system in an environment he couldn't control, because of the health and insurance lobbies. That's almost always the case with any significant social progress; it faces the reluctance and bad faith of those that have a lot to lose.

 

[JohnRoberts]

That's precisely the case with my house insurance; I've paid it for about 40 years and never had to claim any damage. But I know people who have had their house damaged by draught, who had huge bills paid by the insurance company, using the money collected from others.

Called risk "distribution" where large rarely occurring claims get shared across the whole population of insurance participants.

That is called solidarity, one of the few traits that distinct humans from amoebea.
Now one can question the huge amounts of money that stay in the pockets of the insurance companies.

I've posted about this when it happened but a few insurance companies have already dropped their ACA offerings because they were unprofitable. The government factored a budget into the ACA to subsidize insurance company losses for the first few years but that has run its course. Now the insurance companies have a few years actual experience and must price their insurance to cover full claims costs.

Prez Obama had to set up his healthcare system in an environment he couldn't control, because of the health and insurance lobbies. That's almost always the case with any significant social progress; it faces the reluctance and bad faith of those that have a lot to lose.

President Obama had control of both houses including a super majority in the senate, so he pretty much had a blank check his first two years in office to write whatever legislation they wanted.

I won't insult the forum by saying this will be trivial to reform.  I am more optimistic this time around, but this will be a huge challenge to get right. 

JR