Brexit

[DaveP]

To put some figures to the costs of "free health care" in the UK and Europe.

Those in work in the UK pay 7 or 8% National Insurance contributions on their salary deducted at source.  Their employer also makes a contribution too.

Here in France I pay 70 Euros a month for AXA health insurance, but there are also a few small payments to make as and when I need medication or to see the doctor.

DaveP

 

[Banzai]

You said:
To me, an unexpected hugely expensive operation IS emergency coverage. How do you define emergency?

But rather than quibble semantics, we agree it's a poor system. You've just been getting screwed longer than I have hence your comment "you're not getting sympathy for me" I suppose.

In any case it's an exorbitant jump for someone like me who is healthy and spends a lot of money already on health foods and supplements to suddenly have a huge extra bill each and every month when prior to that I didn't. For no benefit unless I have an emergency.

Sorry you think that's fair but it isn't, just because you're in a poor system too. I get no benefit unless I have a  terrible  emergency. That is NOT how it was billed to us Americans. It's an unbelievably sh**ty system and expensive as hell and I have every right to be angry about it.

I have no idea why you're ranting about all this, and genuinely don't care if you're angry... Be as angry as you wish.

But I will say you're out of your mind if you think single payer or universal healthcare systems are poor. We don't agree about this at all. To be unequivocal, my system isn't poor, and I haven't been getting screwed (there's no such thing as emergency or normal insurance for me, there's only one all incl. coverage).

You see, I literally have never needed to think about or consider the cost of healthcare, because of this very same insurance. It's been a non-issue, my entire life. The average American seems to go from day to day worried about what will happen if they or a family member gets sick...

As a culture, we also don't seem to have a problem with how all this works, and we're perfectly fine with the healthy paying for the sick. No-one whines or moans about it, and the wheel keeps on turning. It seems that as individuals and a nation, you're not quite as far in your development.

 

[sahib]

To put some figures to the costs of "free health care" in the UK and Europe.

Those in work in the UK pay 7 or 8% National Insurance contributions on their salary deducted at source.  Their employer also makes a contribution too.

Here in France I pay 70 Euros a month for AXA health insurance, but there are also a few small payments to make as and when I need medication or to see the doctor.

DaveP

I have not checked the latest figures but the last time I employed people was in 2007-2008 and 10% was deducted from the employee's pay as employee's contribution and above that the employer paid 12% as employer's contribution.

 

[abbey road d enfer]

Here in France I pay 70 Euros a month for AXA health insurance, but there are also a few small payments to make as and when I need medication or to see the doctor.

DaveP

I believe your case is not absolutely typical since you're en expat; I don't know how it works for you. Do you have the same benefits as French nationals, under whatever agreement between the NHS and Assurance Maladie? Do you have a "Carte vitale"? Perhaps being retired you're entitled to the French common regime...?
So your AXA insurance would be a complementary insurance, that covers the deductibles (known as "tiers payant"), just like many nationals have subscribed (in fact it is now required by law for most working individuals).
If AXA is your only health insurance, I believe it won't cover much.

Being retired, I am deemed not to pay for healtcare (in fact it is deducted from my pension in an invisible manner, along with many other things). I have chosen not to have a complementary coverage, but I shop for it from time to time; a sensible option would cost me more than 1200 Euro/year, which is about 3 times what I pay in deductibles and extra billing.

 

[DaveP]

I have a Carte Vitale and have the same health cover as a French citizen.

I believe that my health costs are claimed back from the UK by Assurance Maladie.  The AXA insurance comes in several flavours, mine covers almost everything, but not all.  It would have been 100 euros /month to cover every single expense.

DaveP

 

[ruffrecords]

I have not checked the latest figures but the last time I employed people was in 2007-2008 and 10% was deducted from the employee's pay as employee's contribution and above that the employer paid 12% as employer's contribution.

Like a lot of UK tax it uses a complex formula but it averages out at around 10% for the employed person whether employed or self employed. However, children, the unemployed and retired folk (like me) pay nothing but still get the same level of care.

Cheers

Ian

 

[abbey road d enfer]

retired folk (like me) pay nothing but still get the same level of care.

I guess your "pay nothing" is the same as me, i.e. hidden in the arcane government calculations and formulae...

 

[abbey road d enfer]

I have a Carte Vitale and have the same health cover as a French citizen.

I believe that my health costs are claimed back from the UK by Assurance Maladie.  The AXA insurance comes in several flavours, mine covers almost everything, but not all.  It would have been 100 euros /month to cover every single expense.

DaveP

Was it worth all the trouble being born British, to end up in the same situation as the French?  ;D 8)

 

[sahib]

Like a lot of UK tax it uses a complex formula but it averages out at around 10% for the employed person whether employed or self employed. However, children, the unemployed and retired folk (like me) pay nothing but still get the same level of care.

Cheers

Ian

Ian, it is actually very straightforward.

I have just checked it on line and although it depends on the category of the tax code the first £155.00 a week is free from pay. After that the employee pays 12% and the employer pays 13.8%. 

 

[ruffrecords]

Ian, it is actually very straightforward.

I have just checked it on line and although it depends on the category of the tax code the first £155.00 a week is free from pay. After that the employee pays 12% and the employer pays 13.8%.

LOL, I checked it online before I posted and that is why I said it was complex!! Obviously we have different ideas of very straightforward.

Cheers

Ian

 

[DaveP]

Was it worth all the trouble being born British, to end up in the same situation as the French?  ;D 8)

Well I didn't have much say in the matter, but I wish I had taken more notice of my poor French teacher when my brain was more capable of soaking it all up.  Unfortunately, she ended up a nervous wreck and all we ever did was endless conjugation written up on the blackboard.

You French don't know how lucky you are, England has not been as empty as this part of France for a hundred years.  When I went back to the UK in October, I could not believe the traffic and that was in the countryside between Bristol and Bath, I could not wait to get back home to France.  The health system in France is actually very good but like the rest of the country, clogged up with paperwork.

DaveP

 

[Phrazemaster]

I have no idea why you're ranting about all this, and genuinely don't care if you're angry... Be as angry as you wish.

But I will say you're out of your mind if you think single payer or universal healthcare systems are poor. We don't agree about this at all. To be unequivocal, my system isn't poor, and I haven't been getting screwed (there's no such thing as emergency or normal insurance for me, there's only one all incl. coverage).

You see, I literally have never needed to think about or consider the cost of healthcare, because of this very same insurance. It's been a non-issue, my entire life. The average American seems to go from day to day worried about what will happen if they or a family member gets sick...

As a culture, we also don't seem to have a problem with how all this works, and we're perfectly fine with the healthy paying for the sick. No-one whines or moans about it, and the wheel keeps on turning. It seems that as individuals and a nation, you're not quite as far in your development.

Last I checked everyone here is "ranting" about something. I'm not sure why you're taking such an adversarial role. I'm not here to prove you wrong, and thanks for not giving a sh*t about my feelings. But whatever dude, we can disagree without making it personal. Or can we?

"It seems that as individuals and a nation, you're not quite as far in your development."

Wow. Anything else I could say would just be attacking you back, so I won't.

 

[ruffrecords]

You French don't know how lucky you are, England has not been as empty as this part of France for a hundred years.  When I went back to the UK in October, I could not believe the traffic and that was in the countryside between Bristol and Bath, I could not wait to get back home to France. 
DaveP

That's why I live in North Norfolk. The nearest dual carriageway is 22 miles away.

Cheers

Ian

 

[ramshackles]

You French don't know how lucky you are, England has not been as empty as this part of France for a hundred years.  When I went back to the UK in October, I could not believe the traffic and that was in the countryside between Bristol and Bath, I could not wait to get back home to France.  The health system in France is actually very good but like the rest of the country, clogged up with paperwork.

DaveP

One of the (many) reasons we are hoping to move to France next summer. I'm just west of Leeds and the world feels very very crowded. I used to work just 10miles down the road in skipton and it would regularly take me 45 minutes to drive there, so I started cycling to work, although with precisely 0 cycle paths, this was quite perilous (I find it hilarious/sad/ironic that when the tour de france came to yorkshire, ££££'s was spent on resurfacing roads but not a single extra cycle path was created).
Now I work from home (phew)!

 

[Banzai]

Last I checked everyone here is "ranting" about something. I'm not sure why you're taking such an adversarial role. I'm not here to prove you wrong, and thanks for not giving a sh*t about my feelings. But whatever dude, we can disagree without making it personal. Or can we?

"It seems that as individuals and a nation, you're not quite as far in your development."

Wow. Anything else I could say would just be attacking you back, so I won't.

Well, that's one way you could take it...

As far as the USA's development... I can't help if you find this offensive, but your society doesn't portray itself as particularly charitable, or advanced. The extreme gun violence and a complete lack of any form of left-wing are glaring examples, treating healthcare as a commodity is another. I don't expect you to understand this as an American, but my view is far from being unique.

As an aside, I don't think it's sunk in yet, but there isn't a single other developed country where a guy like Trump could ever have won... Maybe Russia, but even that's a stretch, and I'm not sure they even count as developed.

i.e. after what just happened, you're going to have an even harder time shaking off these impressions.

 

[abbey road d enfer]

As far as the USA's development... I can't help if you find this offensive, but your society doesn't portray itself as particularly charitable, or advanced. The extreme gun violence and a complete lack of any form of left-wing are glaring examples, treating healthcare as a commodity is another. I don't expect you to understand this as an American, but my view is far from being unique.

As an aside, I don't think it's sunk in yet, but there isn't a single other developed country where a guy like Trump could ever have won... Maybe Russia, but even that's a stretch, and I'm not sure they even count as developed.

i.e. after what just happened, you're going to have an even harder time shaking off these impressions.

I tend to agree with most of your observations in the first paragraph, but, as to the rest, Italy had Berlusconi and may likely have Grillo, France is ready to welcome Marine Le Pen, UK has Porky Boris, Poland had the Kaczyński Bros.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Well, that's one way you could take it...

As far as the USA's development... I can't help if you find this offensive, but your society doesn't portray itself as particularly charitable, or advanced. The extreme gun violence and a complete lack of any form of left-wing are glaring examples, treating healthcare as a commodity is another. I don't expect you to understand this as an American, but my view is far from being unique.

As an aside, I don't think it's sunk in yet, but there isn't a single other developed country where a guy like Trump could ever have won... Maybe Russia, but even that's a stretch, and I'm not sure they even count as developed.

i.e. after what just happened, you're going to have an even harder time shaking off these impressions.

It is popular sport around the world to portray the US in the worst possible light. I am constantly amazed by the stories about America I hear from international posters here. Since the news coverage overseas is limited to one or two stories a day, they routinely cherry pick the worst ones.  8) That doesn't make them untrue, just paints a negatively biased image.

You'd think that would cut down the immigration demand but we have millions risking their lives to come here illegally, and a long waiting list for legal immigration.

We can't control what the world thinks, so it is a poor use of our time and effort to worry about it. More important to address the real problems here and around the world. It is better to do good than look good (the world of typical politicians).

JR

 

[Script]

Healthcare in Germany
(from Wikipedia)

"According to the Euro health consumer index, which placed it in 7th position in its 2015 survey, Germany has long had the most restriction-free and consumer-oriented healthcare system in Europe. Patients are allowed to seek almost any type of care they wish whenever they want it. [...] Besides the 'Statutory Health Insurance' covering the vast majority of residents, the better-off with a yearly income above almost €50,000 (US$56,497), students and civil servants for complementary coverage can opt for private health insurance (about 11% of the population). [... However... d] uring the last twenty years private health insurance became more and more expensive and less efficient compared with the public insurance."
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Germany#Public_insurance)
-----------------------

This has been confirmed through talks with German friends. But the wikipedia article apparently misses out on the many self-employed people (laywers, tax accountants, etc etc etc), meaning that those who earn a lot (and thus could theoretically pay a lot into the public healthcare system system, cos percentage based on income)... that those actually don't pay anything into the public system at all. And this, I have been told, is the reason why there is also quite some strain on the public healthcare system. Also confirmed by German friends is that it's not just the recent low-interest rate period that makes life difficult for private health care insurance companies, which are obliged to invest in savings plans for their clients. Private insurances are more expensive and insurees sure get some better service for more money (such as private rooms in hospitals). But when compared faily, that is when looking at level of service for equal contribution (payment), private insurance companies in Germany can actually not offer better services than the public health system, so that private insurees are even worse off compared to public insurees.
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Intersting. I also read that Germany is still looking for immigrants. We could all go and live there, drink beer from breakfast time on and eat raw minced pork and Hacksenbraten!

 

[Script]

It is popular sport around the world to portray the US in the worst possible light [...] they routinely cherry pick the worst ones.  8) That doesn't make them untrue, just paints a negatively biased image.

Well, when I experience in person in the US that some people depend on being tipped to actually make a living (waiters for one) -- well, that gives me the creeps for real. I see the same in Japan, but here it's a recent phenomenon. You don't tip waiters or taxi drivers in Japan (it's embarassing!), but most coach drivers actually depend on being tipped. Urgh!

I think if a restaurant etc has to have its staff work virtually for free (making them dependent on being tipped) cos said restaurant  claims it can't afford the cost of employees, should such an establishment then not go bankrupt?

 

[abbey road d enfer]

Healthcare in Germany
(from Wikipedia)

"According to the Euro health consumer index, which placed it in 7th position in its 2015 survey, Germany has long had the most restriction-free and consumer-oriented healthcare system in Europe. Patients are allowed to seek almost any type of care they wish whenever they want it. [...] Besides the 'Statutory Health Insurance' covering the vast majority of residents, the better-off with a yearly income above almost €50,000 (US$56,497), students and civil servants for complementary coverage can opt for private health insurance (about 11% of the population). [... However... d] uring the last twenty years private health insurance became more and more expensive and less efficient compared with the public insurance."

This text is ambiguous. If I read it correctly, private insurance is for complementary insurance (as in France). What I don't grab is, is there really a possibility for someone to chose between the national and a private insurance? And why private insurance would be accessible only for people with 50k+?

This has been confirmed through talks with German friends. But the wikipedia article apparently misses out on the many self-employed people (laywers, tax accountants, etc etc etc), meaning that those who earn a lot (and thus could theoretically pay a lot into the public healthcare system system, cos percentage based on income)... that those actually don't pay anything into the public system at all. 

This seems to confirm the predicament that one can opt out of the national system...weird, as it is clearly against the idea of solidarity.

And this, I have been told, is the reason why there is also quite some strain on the public healthcare system.

That would not be surprising, that's why most people in France who are concerned with budget balance reject the idea of introducing competition between public and private systems.

Also confirmed by German friends is that it's not just the recent low-interest rate period that makes life difficult for private health care insurance companies, which are obliged to invest in savings plans for their clients.

I'm not gonna shed a tear on the poor insurance companies; they are the largest profit companies. AXA has a annual income of 98 billon Euros, 50% more than Airbus! Insurance companies are constantly lobbying for privatizing healthcare; we already know what the outcome would be: more refusals, discriminatory tariffs, collusive tariff practices.

Private insurances are more expensive and insurees sure get some better service for more money (such as private rooms in hospitals).

I can get a private room at hospital, at a cost (about 40 Euro/day); instead of paying 1200 Euro/year to an insurance company, I can buy 30 days of private room. That's the choice I made since 2002. I estimate I saved about 20k Euro. If I had a serious illness that would put me in bed for months or years, that would trigger another mechanism that would make all treatments completely free. I would still have to pay 1200 Euro/month for the single room and 40 Euro for a TV... ??? 

But when compared faily, that is when looking at level of service for equal contribution (payment), private insurance companies in Germany can actually not offer better services than the public health system, so that private insurees are even worse off compared to public insurees.

That is indeed the case of all the people I know who, for any reason, are not entitled to the national health.
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eat raw minced pork

I've been many times in Germany and I've never been proposed this; I believe they keep that between themselves...