Budget "C12" capsules

[Tim Campbell]

OPR's capsule is the top one in his first pic.

 

[craigmorris74]

That s what I thought, thanks.  Are those pieces with the round hole patterns what form the chambers of a real c12?

 

[Tim Campbell]

In a way yes. You're looking at the delay network. Behind that is a chamber in a real CK12 type.
The chinese capsule has no internal chamber and a delay network like a K67

 

[craigmorris74]

Thanks for the explanation.  I always wondered what that looked like!

 

[OPR]

OPR, sorry to be slow, but which capsule is which in your pics?

As Tim pointed out my capsule at the top both in opened and assembled states.
On the lower left is a Chinese edge terminated type and on the right is a Rode capsule from a K2.

 

[Marik]

In a way yes. You're looking at the delay network. Behind that is a chamber in a real CK12 type.
The chinese capsule has no internal chamber and a delay network like a K67

Since we do not make CK12 type capsules and have no any commercial interest I will elaborate on this a bit more.

The heart of a 'true' CK12 capsule is 5-chambers, where each has its own function. It is a resonator system and the dumping/frequency forming/delay network are totally different from so called aperiodic system of K67/87 type. In a sense, even edge terminated K67/87 back plates are essentially anti CK12. To call those C12 does not make any sense. The only "true" to original brass ring CK12 I am aware of are those of Tim Cambel's and OPR's. The teflon CK12 is much different, with its acoustical resistance relaying not on viscosity of the air going through the holes and passage between backplates, but rather on acoustic screen. Its sonics also quite different. The only common thing between the CK12 and "budget C12" is both of them called 'microphone capsule' and both of them have connection to the diaphragm on the edge. Period.

I wish people would stop giving labels and just talk about things on their own merits...

Best, M 

 

[Tim Campbell]

Great explanation Marik.
I would only add that currently MBHO, Telefunken Elektroakustik, Beesneez, Korby, Josephson, Heiserman, Lawson,
Shannon Rhodes, Upton, OPR, SPA, and Campbell Transmitter all make pretty faithful reproductions of AKG's wonderful CK12 capsule.

 

[cyrano]

> SPA

Can't find much about SPA. Is that "The Microphone Spa"? They seem to be gone...

Korby is also gone.

 

[bremusound]

Stephen Paul Audio

> SPA

Can't find much about SPA. Is that "The Microphone Spa"? They seem to be gone...

Korby is also gone.

 

[Tim Campbell]

Stephan Paul Audio is still around though they are hard to reach.
Koby still somewhat maintains a Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/pages/category/Community/Korby-Microphones-213765531982481/ but his output has always been sporadic (He's a former SPA alumni)

There are also a few other companies I haven't mentioned just because they haven't marketed their capsule yet but they most likely will in the coming year. It's quite a crowded field.

I wouldn't call any of these manufacturers "budget" as it is expensive to produce a true CK12 capsule and some of them are downright very expensive (Josephson, Telefunken). A chinese capsule of the type mentioned at the beginning of this thread can be bought for as little as 25 USD.

 

[cyrano]

Stephen Paul Audio

That rang a bell, thanks!

Not a good bell, though:

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/the-moan-zone/59430-where-has-stephen-paul-audio-gone.html

The last communication on their FB page was from 10 years ago...

 

[Tim Campbell]

Well I knew Stephen Paul fairly well. We had many long discussions and he even went so far as to ask me if I'd consider working for him. He was very egocentric and before his untimely death he got a little spacey.

Tony Merril is not Stephan Paul and has really destroyed that brand. He does still resurface from time to time.

 

[RPC360]

Since we do not make CK12 type capsules and have no any commercial interest I will elaborate on this a bit more.

The heart of a 'true' CK12 capsule is 5-chambers, where each has its own function. It is a resonator system and the dumping/frequency forming/delay network are totally different from so called aperiodic system of K67/87 type. In a sense, even edge terminated K67/87 back plates are essentially anti CK12. To call those C12 does not make any sense. The only "true" to original brass ring CK12 I am aware of are those of Tim Cambel's and OPR's. The teflon CK12 is much different, with its acoustical resistance relaying not on viscosity of the air going through the holes and passage between backplates, but rather on acoustic screen. Its sonics also quite different. The only common thing between the CK12 and "budget C12" is both of them called 'microphone capsule' and both of them have connection to the diaphragm on the edge. Period.

I wish people would stop giving labels and just talk about things on their own merits...

Best, M

Just to amplify a bit, the 2072Z0009 (and 2072Z0023) capsule used on the XLII and descendants does have a damping assembly in place of the screen which has offset holes like the original brass capsule. (See http://www.saturn-sound.com/Curio's/akg's%202072%20z%200009%20capsule.htm.) Its response has a high end lift which resembles but does not duplicate the brass capsule's.

 

[kingkorg]

Frequency response of CK12 is imho almost irrelevant.  It is not what makes it great. There are brighter, darker, older, newer ones... It doesn't matter, one can just use an EQ to compensate for that.

However off axis response, how F8, omnii work, THE WAY IT TAKES EQ, absence of "smearing" or phasing in the high end,  and how proximity effect works is unique to it. It's low end is phenomenal and the way it grabs it at distance. Not just amount of it.

All very abstract terms, but after one gets used to it it becomes very obvious and capsule of different construction can't do it.

Thickness of any capsule plays a very important part, because the sound has to travel around it. These two types are very different.

It's almost like expecting an omni mic to sound like cardioid by eqing it, or tuning it to match FR of an cardioid.

Yes K67 and CK12 are both cardioids, but that just says they are more sensitive in the front, and less on the back. It doesn't say how they work at distance, what are the "anomalies" that happen when they get further away from the source and what happens along the way.

Current OPR's and Tim's capsules are as inexpensive as they can get, i just don't get why people can't or wont realise that.

If there were a way for chinese to manufacture it for 30$ they would have done it by now.

 

[Icantthinkofaname]

Anybody try putting Tim's capsule in the SE T2 or 4400a? I saw a couple of those use on eBay (for significantly less than I spent on my Lewitt! The T2 new is close to $800 Canadian shipped when I was looking at it). I don't know if the circuitry is similar (ie a flat circuit), but it could be a way to make a quality clone for the price of a used teflon C414EB P48. (considering brass capsule C414s go for like $3000).

 

[Tim Campbell]

AKG 414EB P48's usually sell for about 500 dollars used and sound terrific with a good capsule in them. I've used my capsule in a few 5600a's and it was quite an improvement.

 

[Icantthinkofaname]

AKG 414EB P48's usually sell for about 500 dollars used and sound terrific with a good capsule in them. I've used my capsule in a few 5600a's and it was quite an improvement.

I'm in Canada, so I'm used to seeing them go for a lot more (they go for $800+ Canadian here online, or the cheap ones get snatched up). I saw a used SE T2 for $400 CAD which is what got me thinking I could put your capsule in it and be spending the same I would spend on a used C414EB P48.

 

[Icantthinkofaname]

Anyone know if the SE T2 has a DC to DC converter good enough to power Tim's capsule?

 

[granger.frederic]

AKG 414EB P48's usually sell for about 500 dollars used and sound terrific with a good capsule in them. I've used my capsule in a few 5600a's and it was quite an improvement.

i've replaced two teflon capsules in two 414eb last year, and it sounded much much better (as the genuine brass 414eb ones)
i have also a c414 comb with a CT12 also...
but i prefer your CT12 with a proper higher-end tube headamp design (c12 or elam) with a good metalwork body, in that case, it sounds just incredible...
my two cents...

 

[Icantthinkofaname]

Just ordered a used SE T2, I'm sure I'll be doing a capsule swap in it, just debating whether or not I want to use the Maiki capsule, or wait and order the CT12 next month.