Guys, thank you all for your answers. By the way. Neumann used polystyrene capacitors in U47, also. It is nothing to put old C1 back, and everything will be as before. But I like the Duelund a bit better. Add: Duelund 400Volt are not crossover capacitors. This is the real signal capacitor( read the info on Duelund's site). I guess I'll say something seditious for some of us here. I decided to try other types of C1, precisely because I did not like the color of the high freq-s with stock C1. I do not care how much it costs a capacitor, if it works fine for me. I just wanted to share my experience. To sale good mic for 3 new modern mics, you said??? It's not for me. I like my mic. But for me its just the tool, not the icon. I always try to get better results with my gear.
C1 capacitor in U47
- Thread starter o3misha
- Start date
Help Support GroupDIY Audio Forum:
wow, here started the confusion. I misread the damned word. Sorry guys. But I still believe that c1 is ok as it is. But that's just my 0,2 c. Regarding comment that U have to sell the mic, I can't find that in my writing. If I have to elaborate I was pointing to the price of vintage U47 compared to the new mic's . if you have money to by that you can buy a bunch of other mic's ready for upgrading. At last I do that way and there is no sarcasm... Call me whatever U like but I really think that U47 is best mic ever made . N
No hard feelings, Just an advice and bit of criticism
Moby said:
Well, think about this: If you bought a U47/U67/M49/C12 ten or twenty years ago, you can sell it now for the same money or probably some more. So, really, you had a top level mic for free. How much do you think you'll get for a bunch of modded mics, regardless of how good they sound?
Also, owning one genuine top level mic is more rewarding than owning ten that sound half as good or even 90% as good. You'll still have the feeling that you're "not quite there."
Guys, we're talking about the sound, not about something icons. Microphone, even if it is U47, - only a tool. Somehow, all at once start to talk about money and value, although I talked about the sound! What is wrong with modifications, if they improve the sound? Purism is a disease. I read a lot about modern PSUs that they degrade the sound of U47. However, after the purchase of the power supply from Andreas Grosser, I can safely say the opposite. Examples are many, but I will refrain. Sorry for off-top. Shortly: Nothing in the world is perfect. Even buying an old castle in the English countryside does not force you to renounce the use of modern facilities for repairs. There are of course some romance to live as human beings in the 17th century, for example. But it may still be easier to upgrade, while maintaining the charm and dignity of the original? This is the same ...
IMO a microphone is never just a tool. What it is depends on the way you use it. If you're a vocalist, it is an instrument or part of your instrument. For a non-musician or an alien from outer space, a grand piano may be just a mechanical device. Conversely, when a musician touches a shoe box, it turns into an instrument, so why not a microphone?
When it comes to expensive microphones, you it's hard to ignore the money factor. EUR 6,000 - 10,000 is a lot of money for most people. Is it too much for a microphone? Or is it even inexpensive when you compare it to, say, a violin or grand piano? Again, it depends on your perspective.
Regarding mods: Well, there's not much harm in a simple capacitor mod which is easily reversed. And yes, purism is a disease. But so is "the mod bug". In the 80s and 90s lot of vintage mics were modded in ways that make us cringe today. Modding, too, is always done from a certain perspective, and often times those mods don't stand the test of time, as your perspective changes. I've done mods in the past (luckily to inexpensive equipment) that I would never do today, but back then I fooled myself into believing it was a vast improvement. Well, it was a learning experience.
When it comes to expensive microphones, you it's hard to ignore the money factor. EUR 6,000 - 10,000 is a lot of money for most people. Is it too much for a microphone? Or is it even inexpensive when you compare it to, say, a violin or grand piano? Again, it depends on your perspective.
Regarding mods: Well, there's not much harm in a simple capacitor mod which is easily reversed. And yes, purism is a disease. But so is "the mod bug". In the 80s and 90s lot of vintage mics were modded in ways that make us cringe today. Modding, too, is always done from a certain perspective, and often times those mods don't stand the test of time, as your perspective changes. I've done mods in the past (luckily to inexpensive equipment) that I would never do today, but back then I fooled myself into believing it was a vast improvement. Well, it was a learning experience.
useme2305
Well-known member
Rossi said:useme2305 said:Rossi said:
Let me put this differently: I did open my U47 once or twice to check its condition (as you should, when you buy one) but I was too lazy, so far, to open it again for the sake of this discussion.
oh alright. thanks for clearing that up...i was seriously worried about you for a second.
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We are all different and that's really great. Maybe you're right, maybe all of us have to change damned C1. But if you have some time please put some sound samples. I know it's hard with microphones but maybe you can make it. No sarcasm 8)
Great, U can see my mail , it's visible for all logged members. Is that A/B test or just upgraded?
Not to be unfounded:
Guys, here are a couple of files that are recorded with my friend guitarist at different times. One with a polystyrene C1, the other with Duelund C1. Position the microphone standard: ~ 40 cm slightly angled at 12 fret. Martin OM21 Special guitar. Strings 12-54 Phosphor-Bronze. What are your impressions? I am interested not only answers like, one better than the other. How significant is the difference for you? And so on.
http://files.mail.ru/BD75EB865E524D729490CFEDC08C84F8
PS: Moby, you've heard it all, so please keep your secret answer.
Guys, here are a couple of files that are recorded with my friend guitarist at different times. One with a polystyrene C1, the other with Duelund C1. Position the microphone standard: ~ 40 cm slightly angled at 12 fret. Martin OM21 Special guitar. Strings 12-54 Phosphor-Bronze. What are your impressions? I am interested not only answers like, one better than the other. How significant is the difference for you? And so on.
http://files.mail.ru/BD75EB865E524D729490CFEDC08C84F8
PS: Moby, you've heard it all, so please keep your secret answer.
Great no worries, I'm going dark
no worries, I'm going dark Eventually was curious enough to open my U47 (the later shortbody K47 version). It has a yellow/gold colored Wima cap. Apparently those Wimas are known as TFF, a film type with aluminum between PET foil (polyester). People seem to like them in vintage guitar amps.
Listend to the sound files. Not sure what to make of them, because, obviously, it's not the same take and probably not *exactly* the same position. I think B is played a bit softer than A. I'm not complaining - it's just very hard to do an exact unbiased comparison. "A" seems brighter but maybe a little flat, "B" sounds more balanced and "integrated", also more open in the lower range.
Personally I'd like to hear polypropylene as that's the kind of cap I usually (but not always) prefer in critical positions (e.g. capsule to FET). For now I'm going to stick with the original Wima TFF. I love the sound of my U47, so why change?
Listend to the sound files. Not sure what to make of them, because, obviously, it's not the same take and probably not *exactly* the same position. I think B is played a bit softer than A. I'm not complaining - it's just very hard to do an exact unbiased comparison. "A" seems brighter but maybe a little flat, "B" sounds more balanced and "integrated", also more open in the lower range.
Personally I'd like to hear polypropylene as that's the kind of cap I usually (but not always) prefer in critical positions (e.g. capsule to FET). For now I'm going to stick with the original Wima TFF. I love the sound of my U47, so why change?
Yes, its hard to make 100% objective test, but what can I do today? But position of mic was as same as possible. Piece of music played almost very similar (not identical, of course). The difference in the nature of sound, in my opinion, can be heard.
When you make a comparison yourself, you find things to listen for and it's easier to isolate them from other variables. When you just listen to files, it's much more difficult to separate the points in question from other variables.
So, there is a sound difference for sure, but it's hard, for us listeners, to isolate the influence of C1. Might be a bit easier if there were more files including a particularly bad cap (like - probably - multilayer ceramic). But that would be a lot of work just for the sake of science.
So, there is a sound difference for sure, but it's hard, for us listeners, to isolate the influence of C1. Might be a bit easier if there were more files including a particularly bad cap (like - probably - multilayer ceramic). But that would be a lot of work just for the sake of science.
Well I'm waiting to other guys take a listen because I listened this first and I know the "answer" . Of course I have the opinion too
MagnetoSound
Well-known member
OK, I'll chime in - but unfortunately I have to concur with some of the comments your comparison has attracted both here and in your other thread over at PRW ...
Specifically, I am having trouble believing that the differences in tone between the two files are fundamentally down to the difference in C1; to me, the recordings sound very much as if the variation in mic placement (however minor it may seem to you) was the dominant factor.
I have recorded enough acoustic guitar to know how much difference even a couple of centimetres in distance, a few degrees in angle, can affect the multitimbral tones of acoustic guitar quite dramatically - and I know the way it sounds.
I believe this positional difference has had a quite dramatic effect on the phasing of various frequencies picked up from the guitar (a difficult instrument to replicate in tone from one day to the next, even with the exact same mic, player and room), and is sufficiently dominant to render a comparison between the two capacitor types almost impossible.
This (leaving aside the slight differences in player articulation to boot) makes it very hard to give much credence to the test, which, admittedly, is a shame.
At the end of the day though, it is only your own preference that matters.
Specifically, I am having trouble believing that the differences in tone between the two files are fundamentally down to the difference in C1; to me, the recordings sound very much as if the variation in mic placement (however minor it may seem to you) was the dominant factor.
I have recorded enough acoustic guitar to know how much difference even a couple of centimetres in distance, a few degrees in angle, can affect the multitimbral tones of acoustic guitar quite dramatically - and I know the way it sounds.
I believe this positional difference has had a quite dramatic effect on the phasing of various frequencies picked up from the guitar (a difficult instrument to replicate in tone from one day to the next, even with the exact same mic, player and room), and is sufficiently dominant to render a comparison between the two capacitor types almost impossible.
This (leaving aside the slight differences in player articulation to boot) makes it very hard to give much credence to the test, which, admittedly, is a shame.
At the end of the day though, it is only your own preference that matters.
This (leaving aside the slight differences in player articulation to boot) makes it very hard to give much credence to the test, which, admittedly, is a shame.
On PRW , my partner at the studio also proposed to test the specified capacitor. There's absolutely not share our ideas. The reasons for this, in my opinion, in the absence of curiosity and desire to listen to the opinions of others. I do not understand your statement ....
The shame? Admittedly? I don't understand it. Do you mean that all guys here have the same opinion with you ? This is the bold statement.....(Q.Tarantino) How would you try to choose the right color of the sound, if not to listen to some examples?
I find no shame in this test. I personally heard the difference in the sound of capacitors. At least one participant is still too audible. Regardless of the difference in articulation. The position of the microphone can affect the overall tonal balance, for some resonances and so on. I tried to choose the same position. I recorded guitars many times in my life. But capacitors interfere with the dynamics of the capsule and create a different set of harmonics. Do not believe me? I can upload another two samples of the same guitar part with the same two caps ( I've got it, already). And you will hear again about the same difference, inspite of differences in articulation and so on.
P.SI still think that man, which was initially skeptical never satisfied conclusions of others. As long as he does not try an experiment. If are not interested - forget it. If you are interested. you have to try it your self.
On PRW , my partner at the studio also proposed to test the specified capacitor. There's absolutely not share our ideas. The reasons for this, in my opinion, in the absence of curiosity and desire to listen to the opinions of others. I do not understand your statement ....
The shame? Admittedly? I don't understand it. Do you mean that all guys here have the same opinion with you ? This is the bold statement.....(Q.Tarantino) How would you try to choose the right color of the sound, if not to listen to some examples?
I find no shame in this test. I personally heard the difference in the sound of capacitors. At least one participant is still too audible. Regardless of the difference in articulation. The position of the microphone can affect the overall tonal balance, for some resonances and so on. I tried to choose the same position. I recorded guitars many times in my life. But capacitors interfere with the dynamics of the capsule and create a different set of harmonics. Do not believe me? I can upload another two samples of the same guitar part with the same two caps ( I've got it, already). And you will hear again about the same difference, inspite of differences in articulation and so on.
P.SI still think that man, which was initially skeptical never satisfied conclusions of others. As long as he does not try an experiment. If are not interested - forget it. If you are interested. you have to try it your self.
HellfireStudios
Well-known member
I think the problem lies in the fact that both capcitors sound great. Is there a difference? It is hard to tell with the variances that could have occured during performances.
Is the change different enough to justify the price (notice how I said different and not better)? It seems like the law of diminishing returns comes into play here... If you like it, that is great, but most of us can't justify those kind of costs when the money can be put to use in more critical areas (capsules and transformers).
-James-
Is the change different enough to justify the price (notice how I said different and not better)? It seems like the law of diminishing returns comes into play here... If you like it, that is great, but most of us can't justify those kind of costs when the money can be put to use in more critical areas (capsules and transformers).
-James-
