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I didn't drink enough beer last night to make sense of paralleling two sections of 5532 together but from a quick glance at this latest schemo..

IIRC the 1646 family wants to be driven from a low Z not the wiper of a 10k pot that could rise to as much as 2.5k source impedance.

Regarding the solo you probably want to add a drain resistor from the cap output to ground to reduce switch clicks.

JR

Watch the alcohol intake ! (he writes whilst sipping at a large glass of Rioja 🤣)
Exactly right about driving 1646. It's right there explicitly in the datasheet but there's an odd reluctance of some people to accept it's really necessary 🙄 It will work from the wiper of course but with lower performance. So why buy a "premium" part and then knowingly hamper it 🤔
And yes cap discharge is a good idea all round.
 
Watch the alcohol intake ! (he writes whilst sipping at a large glass of Rioja 🤣)
Life is short and I really enjoy my adult beverages. I order a full blood panel once a year to confirm that I am not doing any damage to my innards. As I have shared before this annual bloodwork identified low thyroid output that was symptomless and is now corrected with synthetic thyroid hormone supplements.
Exactly right about driving 1646. It's right there explicitly in the datasheet but there's an odd reluctance of some people to accept it's really necessary 🙄 It will work from the wiper of course but with lower performance. So why buy a "premium" part and then knowingly hamper it 🤔
And yes cap discharge is a good idea all round.
I am still chewing on that two halves of 5532 configured in parallel. Over the years I have used truckloads of 5532 and would be disappointed if I missed an easy opportunity to improve S/N 3 dB.

Which socket/opamp is this going to replace?

JR
 
Life is short and I really enjoy my adult beverages. I order a full blood panel once a year to confirm that I am not doing any damage to my innards. As I have shared before this annual bloodwork identified low thyroid output that was symptomless and is now corrected with synthetic thyroid hormone supplements.

Indeed

I am still chewing on that two halves of 5532 configured in parallel. Over the years I have used truckloads of 5532 and would be disappointed if I missed an easy opportunity to improve S/N 3 dB.

Which socket/opamp is this going to replace?

Applies generally - not specific to 5532 or dual opamps or audio. Given a single signal source (so correlated signals at input of each circuit) and uncorrelated voltage noise for each opamp stage - the combined signal sums at +6dB whilst the noise sums at +3dB - so an overall gain of 3dB. But you can simply average the outputs via the low ohm sharing resistors to realise the advantage without increasing signal level. There is, though, a penalty in that circuits are basically duplicated.
 
Indeed



Applies generally - not specific to 5532 or dual opamps or audio.
I am pretty sure the discussion was specifically about paralleling two sections of 5532 together.
Given a single signal source (so correlated signals at input of each circuit) and uncorrelated voltage noise for each opamp stage - the combined signal sums at +6dB whilst the noise sums at +3dB - so an overall gain of 3dB. But you can simply average the outputs via the low ohm sharing resistors to realise the advantage without increasing signal level. There is, though, a penalty in that circuits are basically duplicated.
This is old news, well explored in the literature of low noise design (but not for throwing opamps like 5532 in parallel AFAIK).

JR
 
I am pretty sure the discussion was specifically about paralleling two sections of 5532 together.
It applies generally. I raised it 5532 as that was the subject of discussion in the OP thread / circuit.

This is old news, well explored in the literature of low noise design (but not for throwing opamps like 5532 in parallel AFAIK).
Yes. Nothing new claimed esp given that Self has put numbers on it for 5532 in particular.
 
It applies generally. I raised it 5532 as that was the subject of discussion in the OP thread / circuit.
indeed
Yes. Nothing new claimed esp given that Self has put numbers on it for 5532 in particular.
I searched for a Self example and the one or two references I found wanted me to sign up for another forum. I already have too many friends (kidding sort of but too much junk mail).

JR
 
indeed

I searched for a Self example and the one or two references I found wanted me to sign up for another forum. I already have too many friends (kidding sort of but too much junk mail).

JR

See reference below. I don't think I can copy / paste from the publication here without copyright issues ?
There may be later editions. In the edition referenced below it's covered on pages 28 - 31. May also be discussed elsewhere in the text.
28 - 31
Yes - signing up to multiple forums can be something of a pain.


1739784236516.png
 
See reference below. I don't think I can copy / paste from the publication here without copyright issues ?
There may be later editions. In the edition referenced below it's covered on pages 28 - 31. May also be discussed elsewhere in the text.
28 - 31
Yes - signing up to multiple forums can be something of a pain.


View attachment 145927
[I don't think I can copy / paste from the publication here without copyright issues?] -- Doing a "Copy & Paste" from one type of publication to another is one thing, but.....-- I think -- you can "Copy & Paste" from your source material to Microsoft "WORD" and then do a "Save As" as a PDF file. From there, you can then attach that file to a response of yours here. Then, finally.....as a means to try and CYA (Cover Your A$$), at the end of your pasted document, you could also include a "Disclaimer" stating that "The preceding material is presented here within this document for educational purposes only".

Just trying to help.....

/
 
See reference below. I don't think I can copy / paste from the publication here without copyright issues ?
There may be later editions. In the edition referenced below it's covered on pages 28 - 31. May also be discussed elsewhere in the text.
28 - 31
Yes - signing up to multiple forums can be something of a pain.


View attachment 145927
$92.16 for the paperback version... That's not going to happen. ;)
===
Maybe just tell me (us). I've been thinking about this even while sober and still don't see how to hard parallel two sections of 5532 together and have them behave like one stronger, quieter, op amp without fighting each other.

I presume that you mean to hard connect both + and both - inputs together. Then the outputs can be summed through something like 10 ohm Rs.

Maybe separate feedback caps between each output and each - input.

Output taken from sum of two 10 ohm Rs.

What topology, what closed loop gain?

Don't worry I won't tell anybody if you tell me.

JR
 
$92.16 for the paperback version... That's not going to happen. ;)
===
Maybe just tell me (us). I've been thinking about this even while sober and still don't see how to hard parallel two sections of 5532 together and have them behave like one stronger, quieter, op amp without fighting each other.

I presume that you mean to hard connect both + and both - inputs together. Then the outputs can be summed through something like 10 ohm Rs.

Maybe separate feedback caps between each output and each - input.

Output taken from sum of two 10 ohm Rs.

What topology, what closed loop gain?

Don't worry I won't tell anybody if you tell me.

JR

I'll trust that this snippet won't get me locked up :oops:
The test also illustrates a version with gain,

1739814254299.png
 
I'll trust that this snippet won't get me locked up :oops:
The test also illustrates a version with gain,
edit- in the version with gain did he use one or two feedback networks. /edit]

Thanks, but that's a disappointment. Those - inputs are not connected together. That is a pretty common, well known, strategy to increase current output from unused op amp sections.

I have used that more frequently when I have a spare section of TL074 quad op amp left over and could benefit from lower impedance drive capability so I can use lower value, lower noise, feedback network resistors (bifets only drive 2k comfortably). I actually did that inside a DSP project I consulted on after leaving Peavey (this century but already a couple decades ago). When using it for other than unity gain buffers, I connect the + input of the second op amp to the output of the first, but still use the degeneration sharing resistors between the two op amp outputs.

I never considered it to make a lower noise opamp. The Cohen topology with very low noise discrete front end active devices was my goto approach for low noise since the mid-late 1970s (but I didn't know it was called "Cohen" until decades later).

I am a little uncertain about noise benefit from that simple Self parallel. Since the bottom of the input long tail pairs and both inputs are not connected, this is not the standard active devices in parallel topology known in the literature. I will ASSume that Self documented bench measurements of the noise reduction from his 5532 twofer. 🤔

In my time wasted searching the WWW I did find a post from the man himself (many years ago) saying the output noise was too low to measure practically. But I think he was referring to an oddball low power audio amp (headphone amp?) crafted from paralleling multiple opamps together using that same build out output series resistor topology across many devices.

Here's a hint, the technique used by uber low noise op amp makers to characterize extremely low noise opamps is to test them while running at some significant closed loop gain (like 100x) then dividing down the output noise by that closed loop gain factor. I recall being critical of that measurement technique (for measuring distortion) because the inputs are terminated with very low source impedances but for basic noise measurements it seems practical.

JR
 
Last edited:
$92.16 for the paperback version... That's not going to happen. ;)
===
Maybe just tell me (us). I've been thinking about this even while sober and still don't see how to hard parallel two sections of 5532 together and have them behave like one stronger, quieter, op amp without fighting each other.

I presume that you mean to hard connect both + and both - inputs together. Then the outputs can be summed through something like 10 ohm Rs.

Maybe separate feedback caps between each output and each - input.

Output taken from sum of two 10 ohm Rs.

What topology, what closed loop gain?

Don't worry I won't tell anybody if you tell me.

JR
See attached pdf

Cheers

Ian
 

Attachments

  • NE5532parallel.pdf
    683 KB
Thanx...I typically try not to load 5532 with less than 600 ohm feedback networks. That looks like 480 ohms before even considering any external output loading. Maybe a negative impedance external load would get that back up onto the page (meeting design specs).

Gaining 2.2 dB lower noise floor is not nothing, but there are modern op amps that easily spank that, and alternate topologies (Cohen) that spank that by a bunch.

JR
 
edit- in the version with gain did he use one or two feedback networks. /edit]
I think Ian's post makes that clear

Thanks, but that's a disappointment. Those - inputs are not connected together. That is a pretty common, well known, strategy to increase current output from unused op amp sections.
You're strictly correct in that it is the circuits that are paralleled, rather than the opamps themselves.
But tbf that's a common type of usage linguistically. eg the output of an opamp buffer is often described as "very low impedance".
It is, of course, the circuit that exhibits the low output impedance rather than the opamp device itself that might have a datasheet output impedance of, say, 200 Ohm. But this is multiplied up by the circuit. That's not an exact analogy :) but I think the point is clear.
Regardless, it works to lower the noise as well as increasing the available current drive.
I can't verify the dB figures quoted. But professional respect would lead me to accept them as correct.
fwiw last time I used this technique was some decades past in a different application area (control signals for High Voltage work - typically 0 -10V to be multiplied up to 0 - 10kV. Different devices and dc accuracy required - but same principle and a useful benefit.

I have used that more frequently when I have a spare section of TL074 quad op amp left over and could benefit from lower impedance drive capability so I can use lower value, lower noise, feedback network resistors (bifets only drive 2k comfortably). I actually did that inside a DSP project I consulted on after leaving Peavey (this century but already a couple decades ago). When using it for other than unity gain buffers, I connect the + input of the second op amp to the output of the first, but still use the degeneration sharing resistors between the two op amp outputs.
If I'm translating that properly - increases current but not reduce noise ?
Correct me if I am misunderstanding - my thoughts are Malbec assisted tonight :)
In advance of a high voltage corona / ozone issue that I'll need to address in the morning (not an audio thing apart from thr HV "fizz" noise).

I never considered it to make a lower noise opamp. The Cohen topology with very low noise discrete front end active devices was my goto approach for low noise since the mid-late 1970s (but I didn't know it was called "Cohen" until decades later).
Yes. Am aware of your friction with the "Cohen" term :)
And I wasn't aware of the term until well after I'd seen the topology discussed.
But yes - it's impressive. I don't think the "parallel circuits" approach being considered here is meant to be regarded as an alternative for it.
But it's a relatively easy win where a Cohen type solution isn't practicable but you have a spare opamp stage.

I am a little uncertain about noise benefit from that simple Self parallel. Since the bottom of the input long tail pairs and both inputs are not connected, this is not the standard active devices in parallel topology known in the literature. I will ASSume that Self documented bench measurements of the noise reduction from his 5532 twofer. 🤔

In my time wasted searching the WWW I did find a post from the man himself (many years ago) saying the output noise was too low to measure practically. But I think he was referring to an oddball low power audio amp (headphone amp?) crafted from paralleling multiple opamps together using that same build out output series resistor topology across many devices.
Rings a bell.

Here's a hint, the technique used by uber low noise op amp makers to characterize extremely low noise opamps is to test them while running at some significant closed loop gain (like 100x) then dividing down the output noise by that closed loop gain factor. I recall being critical of that measurement technique (for measuring distortion) because the inputs are terminated with very low source impedances but for basic noise measurements it seems practical.
Yeah - that seems a common datasheet measurement approach.
 
[I don't think I can copy / paste from the publication here without copyright issues?] -- Doing a "Copy & Paste" from one type of publication to another is one thing, but.....-- I think -- you can "Copy & Paste" from your source material to Microsoft "WORD" and then do a "Save As" as a PDF file. From there, you can then attach that file to a response of yours here. Then, finally.....as a means to try and CYA (Cover Your A$$), at the end of your pasted document, you could also include a "Disclaimer" stating that "The preceding material is presented here within this document for educational purposes only".

Just trying to help.....

/

Thanks. Although tbh given the context I'm not motivated to tangle with copyright law etc.
and there are all sorts of legal and ethical considerations - some conflicting - and especially when a publication is still in print.
And I am in the UK so the legal considerations may differ to other legislations.
On a (sort of) associated note - I knew someone who performed a humorous song titled "Coco Pops". (This is back from the 90s).
He received a "Cease and Desist" letter from solicitors for Kellogs :)
It wasn't derogatory or critical about the product but the legal side just went bonkers.
He used the letter as publicity. No downside for him as he had no money to speak of and lived in a council house.
IIRC It might have been a performance at Glastonbury Festival that attracted the attention as he had been performing it locally around Cardiff without event.
 
I want to be careful about confusing the mechanism at play.

There is a mathematical 3 dB (square root of two) S/N improvement from summing two outputs containing coherent signal and incoherent noise.

There is a similar mechanism from paralleling active bipolar devices where the input noise voltage is divided by the square root of N, and input noise current is multiplied by the square root of N. I just pulled out my old copy of Low Noise Design from the 70s. This technique has been used to improve matching of active devices with low impedance sources, without using transformers. The classic example of this is used inside the iconic LM394 IC that uses hundreds of small transistors integrated in parallel to make one very low noise LTP.

I confused this Self lower noise dual op amp topology as paralleling the input LTP active devices to lower ein noise, while increasing ein current. While the + inputs are hard paralleled the - inputs are not. The dominant mechanism at play appears to be the coherent signal vs incoherent noise. The paralleled + inputs are not helping since the noise improvement is only 2.2dB, less than the expected 3dB from coherent signal and incoherent noise.

I apologize for this veer I was clearly conflating these two mechanisms. Carry on.

JR
 
Yes. And tbf in the text Self discusses the matter of lesser advantage with his x4 gain example compared to the unity gain case.
FWIW In the Motchenbacher and Fitchen Low noise design text even they suggest diminishing returns from paralleling more than 10 active devices.

I probably would have found the Self text informative several decades ago, but it appears we were digging in some of the same trenches.

From a distance it appears that he used a lot of 553x and 07x just like I did, because they were the obvious (bang for the buck) choices back in the day. FWIW they still don't suck but have been eclipsed on paper by newer chips.

JR
 
FWIW In the Motchenbacher and Fitchen Low noise design text even they suggest diminishing returns from paralleling more than 10 active devices.

I probably would have found the Self text informative several decades ago, but it appears we were digging in some of the same trenches.

From a distance it appears that he used a lot of 553x and 07x just like I did, because they were the obvious (bang for the buck) choices back in the day. FWIW they still don't suck but have been eclipsed on paper by newer chips.

JR

Indeed. Soundcraft desks. Typically 5534 in the micpre (and typically 2SB737 transistors) . Maybe 5532/4 some other critical points. TL072 everywhere else.
Similarly with DDA desks that also have a Soundcraft link. A&H similar. Probably lots of others but those are the ones I'm most familiar with through work or ownership. E&OE.
afaik his use of parallel circuits as discussed is more a thing in his own hifi / diy oriented designs.
I believe that Gareth Connor ex of Soundcraft may be a member here (at least has been) and would have much more accurate detail than myself :)
 

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